John Smallmtn (00:00.754)

Okay, so a lot to dive into there. But I think the thing that I would like to talk about for just a second: How important is it to have that trust with your AE to know that they can close, to know that they’re going to work the deals that you send them? How do you build that trust? What are some things that you have learned to build it faster? And if you see anything, what doesn’t put you on a path of trust between those two parties?

Tom Slocum (00:32.459)

Such a good one. I’ve run this play on my social content before. How do you do this? Because I’ve seen the bad side to the AE-SDR relationship. Even with my team that I’ve scaled twice, they have not worked or gelled together and it gets very nasty. Then I’ve seen the good side when it can work. What I can tell you on the side that does work: communication is probably the biggest piece, letting your ego go, and understanding that you run a business within a business. You guys are almost business partners. One does not work for the other. The AE doesn’t work for the SDR, and the SDR doesn’t work for the AE. I’m not your assistant. I’m not here to do your grunt work. We are here to do the business, and I am one element of it—which is I’m going to set them up and get you the meetings—and you’re the other side, which is the closer. That’s your role.

Collectively, we can be a force if we step into those roles and communicate throughout everything. As an SDR, am I telling my AE the handover process? The more documentation and notes, the better. Give them everything and be fully upfront. Did you just book the meeting by email? Tell them, “Look, man, I got the meeting. They just responded via email. I wasn’t able to qualify out a little bit more than I needed to, but they wanted the meeting.” Cool. Then the AE knows going into that meeting how to tee it up and what they need to do. Or, “Hey, I just got off the phone after 30 minutes. We uncovered this. This is where they’re trying to go. I did find competitors; this is who they’re looking at, blah blah blah.” Tee that up, because that handoff is the most important piece for each other and for your client—your prospect—because it’s the worst when you get on an AE call and they have to recap everything or re-ask you the 80 questions you already answered.

I think open, constant communication—talking every day—is key. For the AE, tell the SDR what’s going on. Give them real-time feedback after a call. “Hey, look, John, that call was all right. It wasn’t great. We missed a couple things.” Or if you’re missing info time and time again after being passed a lead, bring that up. “Hey, John, I have one question I need you to ask moving forward if you can grab this one piece for me. It’ll make these calls a lot better. Can you just ask if they’re looking at any competitors? Just double-check and see if anybody’s in the mix for me, because lately I’ve been blindsided on these calls where they’re bringing up somebody and I wasn’t prepared.” “Gotcha, John. I’ll make sure I get that.”

Communication is number one. Actually having one-on-ones—way too many SDRs and AEs push it off. They don’t want to deal with it because they’re already meeting with their sales managers. They might be talking every day through Slack and messaging already, but it’s so important to take one hour and sit down together, recap up until this point what’s going on and what’s our plan moving forward, and get out those areas that we need to improve on. Have that cadence of, “Hey, where are we at with these accounts? What does your plan for next week look like? How can I support you, and how can you support me? Is there anything we can do for each other to make next week a little bit more successful than it has been?”

So, a meeting cadence that’s actually true—not just showing up and shooting the shit in a room for an hour, going through the motions, but getting into the pipeline and talking about things. Maybe the reps have only penetrated 25% of your account list and they should be reaching out more. Pull that back, go into that stuff. SDR, talk to the AE about how their closing is. Maybe you’ve been sitting on the demo during that first 10 to 15 minutes. Talk to them about that: “What are you seeing?” Be willing to be partners and make each other better. Again, what we said pre-show, it’s an ego and winning thing. Let the ego go and focus on just winning the territory. You’re a business within a business; collectively do that and you’ll find success.

When you’re regularly communicating, you’re willing to tell each other what’s working and what’s not working. Again, celebrate the wins. As an AE, when you do have good calls, acknowledge that and tell the SDR, “Man, we need more of those. That was an incredible conversation. I had all the notes I needed, thank you.” Celebrate those things, because otherwise the rep will get bummed out.

I think the biggest relationship thing is just communicating. Too many SDRs are passing over meetings and they don’t know what happens to them. They’re not getting updated in the CRM. Their manager is on them like, “How many got passed over? Where are they at?” “I don’t know, my AE is not putting anything in the system. I don’t know where we’re at.” You can’t do that. SDR, the handoff is the most important thing, and it starts with you. The way I always explain it is like a rocket ship. The SDR is the crew team on the ground prepping the ship for launch, and the AE is the rocket ship taking off. If that ground team does anything to mess up that ship, what happens when it takes off? Unfortunately, it blows up. It doesn’t make its journey. That’s what an SDR is doing in the handoff. If you mess that up, that AE is screwed, and it’s going to blow up in their face the moment they come on that call.

So it’s on you and the ground team to make sure you’ve prepped everything. “John, here’s who you’re talking to. Here’s their role within the company. Are they a champion and influencer, or are they a decision maker?” Because you don’t want your AE going in cutthroat, ready to close somebody, only to be hit at the end with, “Oh, whoa, dude, I’m just the champion here. I’m not actually the decision maker. I was just here to get the information to relay it first.” They need to know that stuff. What’s their timeline? Now, you can’t qualify all this sometimes on a cold call or an email—that’s why I say communication is important. Get what you can, but then try to fill in those blanks, or at least let your rep know you did try to get those things and you just didn’t have the time because the person rushed you off the phone, but you did get the meeting, whatever it may be.

Then put a little legwork in. Go research them on LinkedIn, find out what their role is in the ecosystem, try to guess at it, and then tell your rep that: “John, I was only able to talk to her for five minutes. I do know this is a pain for them. I believe she’s the decision maker based on LinkedIn and looking at the org, but I’m not certain. You might want to qualify that and just see where she’s at.” “Cool. Thanks, Tom. I got it.”

Now when they jump on the call, that’s the question they know to wiggle around and ask: “Hey, John, I know you talked with Tom. Just curious, when we were looking on LinkedIn, it looks like you answer to Steve and you work alongside Michael. Would you be the ultimate decision maker in this process, or would you be more championing it and being the end user?” “Oh, no, I’m the decision maker. I would be the signer. They’ve given me authority.” “Cool, great. Let me jump into the call and get this teed up for you so you have all the information you need.” Or, “No, I’m just the champion, Tom. I’m just here to relate it to the group, see if this is something we can screen, and see if this is something for our company.” “Cool, I’m not going to hard-close you at the end.”

It just makes everybody better when you’re communicating, being truthful with each other, and realizing you’re business partners, not each other’s dirty work. Neither of you are here to just do dirty work. You’re partners—act like it and trust each other. If you can’t trust each other, then talk to management and maybe find a different pairing, and that is okay, too. I’ve moved a lot of SDRs and AEs around, and they went on to excel with the right partner. It’s like dating: you’ve got to find the right partner that meshes. Sometimes the personalities just don’t add up.

John Smallmtn (08:34.25)

Right. A lot of our focus is on self-awareness: understanding the space you take up in any sales role or sales function. I love what you’re talking about there, where if it’s not working, swap up the pairings. That in and of itself is not failure, right? It’s about seeing how different people work together collaboratively.

I really like what you’re talking about there. Jumping ahead a little bit into the manager role: you talked about owning your own number while also having to manage and coach everyone else. Everyone has opinions on the whole player-coach role, and it’s such a unique space because I think philosophically, you’re always at the crossroads of two questions: Do you go hit your number, or do you work with your team and your reps to make sure that they hit their numbers? You’re going to default to one or the other. How do you feel about the player-coach role? Do you think it’s good for development? Do you think it should be gone? Do you think it’s helpful at all?

Tom Slocum (09:40.311)

I actually think it is helpful. I’m on the side of: you should be in the trenches with your team just as much. Now, you look at sports or other coaching places—are they actively in there with their team? No. You don’t see a basketball coach, you don’t see Steve Kerr on the court with Curry and the team, right? They’re not out there carrying the ball, being like, “Oh, sub me in, coach. I got it for a few minutes just so I can understand the lay of the land.” They do their thing. They played their game, and they were out.

But in sales, because it evolves so rapidly and trends happen so quickly, I think a sales manager should have a micro part of the quota or part of the process. I had to carry 200K as a sales manager while scaling the team. All I had to do was generate 200K in revenue throughout the whole year, not the 1.1 million that the rest of the team had to contribute and support. I just had a small goal: take the deals from my team that might be smaller, that the AE doesn’t want to take—a 5K or a 10K, just small stuff. Or if we have an open territory that we don’t have an AE for, I would step in.

I think a player-coach role can get blurry and challenging, but I think you should be in it. That helps you be with your team, understand what they’re seeing, and keep your skills fresh. Man, if I go a year managing a team and I didn’t pick up the phone and wasn’t in the trenches, I don’t know what the hell is going on. It would have already passed me. I’m outdated as a manager because I don’t know what the heck my team is going through. For this whole time, they could have had a lot of issues that I was unaware of because I wasn’t in the trenches for them.

So I always think that there should be something carried by the sales manager to support and be in those active trenches with the team, because it helps you uncover things. You go into a team meeting and say, “Hey team, I made some calls last week and I’m really running into this one objection. Are you guys, too?” “Yes, we are.” “Okay, well, what are you guys doing to overcome that? How can I help?” Or, “Hey, this is what I tried on the call.” Now you’re equal. Now you’re getting respect and trust, versus coming to them with these concerns and saying, “Well, try this, do that,” and they just roll their eyes because they’re like, “Okay, Tom, you don’t know. That’s not going to fly on a phone call. I can’t do that.” Whereas if I’m actively in it, then I can tell you what I’m seeing and what I’m going through, and it builds camaraderie, trust, and rapport. We’re able to work cohesively together to figure out how to overcome stuff.

Player-coach can be interesting because a lot of times you just want the manager focusing on the business objectives. You need them focusing elsewhere. Maybe you have a 30-person team and you’ve got thirty one-on-ones a week. When do you want me to prospect? “Tom, how could I do that? I’ve got thirty one-on-ones, and I’m meeting with my team bi-weekly instead of weekly because I can’t get through all of those. Now you’re telling me I’ve got to go make cold calls? Come on, man, I can’t do that.”

So it’s not a big goal, but it’s something to tie you to it, because you should be trying to create new business and take on some deals. Have your reps pass you the smaller deals. Work with some of the AEs and say, “Hey John, you don’t need to be dealing with this level of account. If they book it, I’m just going to have them send it to me, and that’s going to count towards your quota either way. But I’ll take them so you can focus on the big fish.” “Appreciate it, Tom.”

John Smallmtn (13:45.854)

The nugget that other people should be thinking about is keeping that goal small. Because if your goal was equal-weighted, you would have less room to be as focused on helping other people, because your contribution is so much more. I really like that idea. A small goal is fine, especially if you have a wider lane and you can take some of the smaller deals but still give your reps credit. I love that, man. Very great insight there.

Tom Slocum (14:37.531)

Yeah, you don’t take the quota per se. You’re held to 200K, let’s say, but as they’re closed, they go towards whatever territory rep is there. Who’s going to be mad at getting an extra deal in for the month? You’re not getting paid the commission on it because you make your salary and you get your commission from your team, but it shows everybody, “Look, I’m in the trenches with y’all. I’m in this battle, too.”

You have all year to hit that goal. It’s not a quarterly thing; it’s just, “Look, at the end of the year, when we run everything up, we want you to have contributed about 200K as well,” whether that’s taking small deals or covering a territory where somebody’s out, whatever that may be. But the rep will get that credit. You just put in your CRM, “Manager Tom closed,” just so it’s accountable and trackable. But yeah, it makes a big difference.

John Smallmtn (15:27.95)

I love that. Now, jumping ahead—because I respect your time and I know we don’t have all day—jumping ahead to you going out and launching the SD Lab: I launched my company coming up on six years ago. We were talking about this before we hit record. I honestly thought that because I know how to sell, had spent 10 years in coaching, and had worked back-to-back with a business partner, I wasn’t going to have any issues. So I jumped out, started going, and then, just like most people do, you start to uncover how much you have to go learn in this new lane of everything. What have been the biggest lessons that you’ve had to figure out and work through on this path of going from just a sales professional who is very passionate about it to someone who is running their own company?

Tom Slocum (16:20.171)

It’s night and day, man. It’s different. I was a full-cycle rep for a decade, then I went into just sourcing the meeting, to now back to everything. Nothing prepares you for it, because in all the 15 years I was out there, I had support. I had a marketing team, a RevOps team, a manager, and a team in general to be in the trenches with every day—something that gave me a bar to be competitive. I’m super competitive, so seeing the leaderboard made a difference. I was always out trying to out-hustle everyone.

To now, I’m responsible for damn near everything. I’ve got to do my own marketing. I’m now a marketer, and I’ve got to learn that world, understand how to build a lead funnel out there, and build brand awareness from nothing to something.

John Smallmtn (17:17.41)

From nothing, yeah. Absolutely.

Tom Slocum (17:18.643)

From nothing, right? To those listening who are in the sales space at companies in the startup world, it’s very different. There is no big brand name to be hiding behind. At other companies I was at, like Yelp, I could just say “Yelp” on the phone and I got hung up on more times than I got to connect because people knew of Yelp and didn’t like it. It was a bad name, like, “Oh, take my reviews down!” At other companies I called, they’d ask, “Who are you? I don’t know what that is. Can you explain that to me?”

Now I’m doing that for myself. I’m a CRO: I’ve got to generate revenue and handle that. I now have to book the meeting, sell the meeting, and then execute the meeting. As an SDR or AE, you never had to see that stuff. As an SDR, you just booked the meeting, forgot about the rest, and went on to the next meeting. As an AE, you closed the deal—and maybe if you were good enough, you were doing the CSM and customer success stuff—but normally you just closed the deal and moved on to get your next one. You got that relief of, “I only have one job to do—be the best at just that one thing.” Where now, I have to be the best at eight different things: marketing, RevOps, being an SDR, being an AE, building products, and building the next things for the company. It’s a lot. It’s very challenging.

It has taught me skills and put me in an incubator of growth at an exceptional rate. In just 18 months, whether SD Lab is my be-all for the next 20 years or the run ends sooner than later, it was something I got to learn. Any next job that I had to go back to, I am light-years ahead of so many because I’ve done this. Not everybody can open a business, so just that alone—I made it past the six-month mark, I made it past the one-year mark, and now I’ve made it through a year and a half and I’m about to hit two. It gets easier, but it’s a lot.

15 years in the trenches did not prepare me as much as I thought it would, and I don’t think you can ever be prepared. For anybody I know who thought they had it all figured out going into it, we’re all on that journey. It’s a personal journey with a lot of growth. Some have got more knowledge than others, sure, but it’s tough to go from working in orgs to now being a solo person. In the remote world, where we’re at now makes it even worse, because you’re stuck in four walls by yourself and you have to find that passion and drive to motivate yourself on a day-to-day basis, set that bar for yourself, and learn new skills. It’s just different.

John Smallmtn (20:13.926)

Yeah, it is the most insane juggle I think I’ve ever seen. You have to be productive, you have to get it done, you have to put down the ego, and you have to look for the blind spots that you’re not even aware to go look at yet.

The other part of it—we were talking about this before recording—you and I both have known people that have tried to go out on their own, especially in the sales coaching, sales training, and sales delivery lane. It’s harder than people think it is, but it’s sold and talked about online like, “Ah, just be a sales coach. Coaching is easy. Anyone can coach and help people with sales.” It’s a lot harder than people think it is. I know more people that have gone in—and this is no harm, no foul, because if it’s not the right lane for you, it’s not worth the sweat and the pressure—but it is a lot, and you do have to figure it all out completely.

Tom Slocum (21:16.519)

You have to, and you will get revealed very quickly on your weaknesses. That’s where—we talked about this pre-show—delegation comes in, understanding how to prep for that. As a solopreneur, depending on what kind of business you’re building—I know many people that just have a solo shop, and that’s okay—you’re going to have to eventually delegate some stuff. Focus on what you’re really good at, and then let the rest go to people that are really good at what they do.

If you really want your business to grow and succeed, and your ultimate passion is to have—like for me, I want SD Lab to be the number one outbound agency in the US, in the world. That is my goal. In five years, I want it to be a household name. I want people to say, “If you need outbound help, SD Lab is it.” If I believe that, then I have to do everything in my power to make sure SD Lab is supported in that motion and is the star of the show. So it’s not a Tom thing. It’s not my ego; I could care less. If I’ve got to delegate some stuff out to people that are better at it than me, why would I not want to do that if my ultimate goal is for my company to be the most successful company it can be? It’s not about me.

Look at the people running companies: Elon Musk does not care. Tesla is Tesla because of the people he’s put in place. It’s not him; he knows that. He’s just a business guy that moves the business forward, but the real people are his team that are in there doing the work. That’s what I want to do: put my ego aside. I don’t need to be in it; I don’t need to be taking control of it. I’m not good at certain things. Let me bring in people that are absolutely amazing at it and get them a piece of the pie, because SD Lab is what I want the star of the show to be. I don’t care if I’m ever seen again. I will go into the darkness as long as SD Lab is the name in people’s mouth. It’s not “Tom with SD Lab,” no—it’s SD Lab, period. You’ll never see me again, but my team is what you trust in. You’re like, “Dude, that company is the company to work with.” That’s the goal.

You have to remember that, and delegation is going to be very key. Because when we were all in our job forces, that’s what we did. I had delegation. If I needed marketing material to help me close a deal, I didn’t have to create that; I went to my team. “Hey, we need this, we need that,” and they would get it spun up, and it’d be awesome. Could I have made it myself? Sure, but it would have been terrible. So you’ve got to delegate when you’re trying to grow, and find those areas where you can fit into your budget, your cost, and your pricing to say, “Hey look, I need these people because that’s what’s going to give the best quality work,” versus my ego trying to own it myself and completely fail. Then you’re just going to burn more than you win.

John Smallmtn (24:06.248)

I think personally—and I’m curious about your opinions on this—the sales path sets you up for failure because there is so much you have to figure out. When you transition up and you’re running your own company, it’s harder to delegate because you’ve been this person of, “I can figure out at least a dirty version of this thing for now.” Delegating is the mastery skill that is probably the hardest thing to do, because you would delegate very differently than how I would delegate, and what you would need in someone to delegate to is going to be different because our personalities and the way that we work are going to be a little bit different.

One of the best books that I’ve ever read—we’re going to talk about books in a minute and what Tom does to continue improving, because that’s really what I want to help people with—is The E-Myth. I read that when I was first starting out my company, because my old business partner told me to wait until I’d started my own thing to read it. I’m so glad I did, because I realized I was building a business that wasn’t scalable at all.

In the beginning of my business, I was networking for people, sourcing meetings, doing a very traditional business development motion, and sharing with people. Then I read this book, and I was like, “No one’s going to allow anyone else to do this for them while they’re paying me to be doing it.” But that didn’t really set me up to learn how to delegate well. That’s a trial by fire. Hiring is difficult, training is hard. When it’s just you, guess what? You are the training department. You are all of these hats.

I love what you said: it’s going to expose all your faults, and you have to be adult enough to just own it, see it, and work on it. Because when you avoid it or when you make it an ego battle, you’re just screwing yourself.

Tom Slocum (26:06.311)

That’s it. It’s an ego thing. It’s a journey of personal growth. You’ll have some fails; you’ll close some clients that you might not do your best work on, and it’s not going to be great. It’s going to suck. There’s imposter syndrome throughout the whole process. You’re watching others on a similar journey and you’re comparing.

What I have found is every solo journey, every business journey, is different. I swear to God, they’re all different. There are some commonalities, yes. Is there a playbook to it? Sure, there are a couple of things where everybody’s in the same boat and in agreement with it, but everyone is doing it differently. Everybody makes different decisions at different times. Some do things three months in, while another will do it nine months in. You just have to be aware of where you’re going and what your North Star is, and focus on that. Don’t worry about everything else.

John Smallmtn (27:00.51)

The important thing here is that if it’s your business, it needs to be what you want it to be. I think some people are being sold on an idea that they need to build something big, versus something that might not even naturally align with that. I know some people who want to be consultants, but they should just be an agency—they should just do it for other people. Really owning: How do you want to work? How do you want to help people?

We all think we have it figured out whenever we start, but my business has pivoted; it’s changed. In the beginning, we were just CRM builds; that’s all I wanted to do. I wasn’t out here to be a coach, a trainer, do placements, recruiting, or process improvement. I just wanted to build a process in the CRM so people wouldn’t lie to themselves. But you figure out what people really want by doing the work and working with clients.

Tom Slocum (28:06.887)

That’s where I went, man. I pivoted, and I’m still pivoting. When you first jump in, especially as a consultant or a coach, you kind of want to help everybody. That’s what you’ve got to realize.

One tip I can leave you all with very much so: niche down as you grow out your business. You’re going to start with the whole kitchen sink. You’re going to think everything—or you might be like John and know, “Just CRM, I want to do this one thing.” But really niche down and be very clear on who you want to work with and what you want to do. Because if you go the route of doing it all, it just gets convoluted. It gets chaotic. I went through it. I had clients from different industries, with different needs and different things happening. Now, I’ve really ironed out one market, one client, one person I want to work with, and I’m going to start there and go all in on just that.

As I evolve, I will go into others. Just like being an SDR, you’ve got different verticals you can call. You go after healthcare or financial services; the best SDRs stick to one and exhaust it until they can’t anymore, then they go to the next one. Niche down. It’s the best advice I can give everybody. I fought it forever. I was like, “Oh, that’s dumb, don’t do that. Just help people.” But when you niche down, your messaging gets clear, your client gets clear, and you can win a lot easier because it’s defined. It’s straight up: “I do this for this to help do this.” That’s the clear value proposition: “I work with this person to help them do this to reach this result, period.”

If anything comes to you without you going after it, sure, take it as it comes; that’s fine. But going to market, really iron in on one thing: “Look, this is what we’re going to do, this is who we’re going to do it for, and this is what we’re hoping to achieve with it.” Double down on that like no other. From there, you’ll really know if you have something or don’t have something, and then you can pivot and move around. Just don’t try to do all of it and be the solution for everybody.

That was my biggest lesson. You guys have listened to me for almost an hour; I’ve been in this for 15 years. I could do anything and everything. I know it like the back of my hand, and I can help in any outbound motion. But that’s hard to sell. That’s hard to define. It’s hard to jump into a call and have them say, “Okay Tom, but what am I actually doing with you? What am I getting? How does this work?” And it’s like, “I don’t know, you tell me. What do you have a problem with?” It doesn’t work like that.

It’s just like a doctor. You can go to a general primary doctor, great. But what do they normally do? They send you to a specialist; they refer out. The general physician doesn’t do everything because they can’t—it’s too much. You’ll never go to a doctor that can do a full suite of everything; they delegate out. So find your specialty. Do you want to be a foot doctor? Do you want to be a heart surgeon? Because when you can do that, you can get really good at it, obsessed with it, and be that much better at it.

A foot doctor or a heart doctor are the best in their game because all they have to worry about is repairing a foot or repairing a heart. They don’t have to know the whole body. Do they know it? Absolutely. They went to school, they know the whole body, of course. But they’re really ironed in on just a foot. “If your foot is a problem, I’m your person. Come to me for your foot. If it’s anything else, I can give you some direction, but you’re going to want to go to my boy John over here who’s the heart guy, because it looks like your foot and heart are connected. You’re going to want to work with him on that part, but I can take care of your foot today.”

So just remember that. Really find your specialty, get obsessed with it, and define that, and you’ll win a lot more than trying to be the whole body and saying, “I just service your body.” It’s too much to learn. It’s too much to handle.

John Smallmtn (31:49.054)

100%. When I started, I thought I was niching. I was saying, “Hey, I’m just going to work on the CRM and help improve your sales process.” But I wasn’t market-focused. I was thinking, “Put me in, let me see the CRM, and we’ll find some clarity points on it.” I was making my own mistakes; I wasn’t niched enough. I was doing my own way of, “Okay, what do you need?”

Now, I’ve zeroed in, but that came only from the pivot of realizing—we were in the middle of the pandemic, and I knew salespeople were being laid off. I thought, “Well, maybe I can place some salespeople in some remote roles because canvassing is not an option right now.” So I started trying to see if I could do this.

I was on a call with a founder and they asked me a question: “Okay John, this sounds cool. I’m open to bringing on a salesperson. Are they going to sell like you?” I said, “Well, you don’t really want someone like me. I’m not a hunter. I’m very consultative; I’m very thoughtful about the outcomes.” This person stopped me dead in my tracks, because I’ve always been the problem child on most of the sales teams that I’ve been on, because I have to ask the questions. I need to understand; it’s got to make sense. I’m also not out to take advantage of people, so it’s made for some rough territory on some of these teams.

This person was like, “Well, I appreciate how this conversation is going, and I would like someone who’s going to do it this way.” It was such an awareness moment of, “Oh my God.” First of all, I was assuming that everyone who talked about selling knew how to sell consultatively, which is a huge gap, a huge blind spot. Most people don’t even understand a consultative stance in a sales motion at all.

Tom Slocum (33:40.100)

Oh, my goodness.

John Smallmtn (33:43.586)

Since everyone talks about “diagnose like a doctor” and asking lots of questions, I was thinking that, more often than not, people would be at the same level as me as far as understanding the different levers of sales and how to build it. Man, what a flawed perception that was. Trying to place salespeople in high-ticket pipelines with high-ticket people who don’t really have a product was just a bad fit for me.

I didn’t know that at the time, because I was thinking, “Everybody wants better outcomes from sales.” But no, lots of people would rather spend time making sure that the contract is ironclad and they can’t get out of it to make sure that they get paid. You get to a niche by getting to a place where you know what to say no to. You default into a niche if you work with enough clients and you’re honest with yourself like, “Ooh, maybe not something like that, because they don’t pass the sniff test.”

I wish I could go back and say, “Day one was awesome because I was just a CRM guy.” While that was the tool, the methodology, and the unique mechanism to put it into a marketing context, I wasn’t clear on who I was going to have great success with. I had the cape on: “I’m helping!” I was helping these grifters who don’t really care about their outcomes or if anyone actually makes it through their programs. I was trying to get them to care about disqualifying for fit. Talk about working the problem badly! They didn’t even want anything that I was doing.

Tom Slocum (35:23.239)

That’s such a great point. You just weed it out. When I first dove in, I didn’t have a plan and I was servicing anybody and everybody going after it. I said yes to clients where I really didn’t feel like it, but you’re strapped for cash, you’re trying to build something, and you make some rough decisions because you’re trying to close deals.

Going back to being mistrained through your sales career: you always just said yes to everything and then figured it out on the back end. That was the game: just say yes and close it, we’ll figure it out. So if you don’t break that habit, you go into your business doing the same thing. You’re like, “We’ll figure it out, we’ll do it. I’ll say yes, I can convince them, it’s good, and we can tackle it.” Then you find out, “Man, I should have never said yes.” I wish I had the financial means to say no. It’s one of those pickles because you’re fighting for revenue when you’re solo. Unless you have runway, you have no income coming in.

I also think it’s good to do that because you do learn from it. You’ve got to test yourself. There are some clients I said yes to that I thought was not something I could do, and I ended up excelling and being just fine. The feedback was like, “You slayed it. You were incredible.” It’s like, “Oh, okay, cool, so I can do that.”

You don’t know your limitations; you don’t know what you’re capable of. When the fire gets tough, pressure makes diamonds. Sometimes that pressure hits and you just figure it out, and then you find out you can do that. I’ve leveled up in skills over the course of 18 months because of some of the stuff I said I didn’t feel comfortable doing, but the customer said yes. They wanted to close; I’m not going to say no. I was like, “Yeah, let’s do it,” and now I’m learning by fire.

John Smallmtn (37:11.622)

The important point there is how to run that conversation the right way. Sometimes people get on the “fake it till you make it” train, telling people they can do everything. You’re over-setting expectations and putting yourself in situations that you can’t win. That’s the difference between having depth of relationship and trust, so that way you can go to someone and say, “Hey, I think I can help you, but we’re going to have to figure it out. Are you okay figuring it out with someone, or do you want to work with someone who can already do it?” That way you’re not putting yourself out there on ledges that can’t support your weight, where it’s very brutal whenever you can’t perform.

If you’re saying no to the people that want to put that kind of crazy pressure on you, versus working with people who are going to give you some grace and room to figure it out, the whole process is so much easier. But you’ve got to be able to push for that, qualify for it, and know that it’s worth having that conversation as opposed to trying to sweep it under the rug.

Tom Slocum (38:17.703)

It’s just a lot of growth. It’s a journey and an experience. I wish for a lot of people to be able to go through it, but it’s not for everybody. I’ve seen friends come and go. We talked about it pre-show: a wife and kids change things. Family, partners, versus solo—it’s a lot different. When you’re just out there on your own, you don’t need a lot of money to make ends meet, so you can put more money into the business. But when you have a family and kids, the numbers get bigger, you’ve got to find a bigger product, and things change.

I’m married, and I’ve got two kids, six and twelve. It’s just different, because I’ve got to balance so differently. I have friends who are solopreneurs and they’re single, kicking it, and doing their thing. I don’t envy it, because I love what I have, but man, your numbers are marginally smaller on a month-to-month basis regarding what you can delegate out and what you can do, versus the numbers I’ve got to chase and put out there. I need a bigger number because I have mouths to feed and different things to do.

Having to balance being a founder and doing everything on your own with being a family person, being there for your partner, and being there for your kids—it’s 18-hour days with about six hours of sleep. You’re just out there. I do everything right now. I’m 18 months in, and I’m still learning. Discussions like this still open my eyes to what I need to be doing.

Like I said, I wish people would go through it and get a chance to build it, but just make sure you have a stomach for it, because you’re going to have seasons. There are going to be periods where you excel, and then there are going to be periods where it all dries up, it’s super quiet, and you have some nasty voices in your head—because you’re programmed a certain way—and they come knocking hard. They come knocking real hard on some days.

When you want to win, you are resilient, and you remember why you’re doing what you’re doing, I will tell you and leave you with this: when the going gets tough, double down. That’s my advice. Double down and do it even harder, because that is someone trying to take away your opportunity from you. That’s how I look at it. When the going gets tough, it’s questioning you, preparing you, and taking another layer off the onion. You can either fold, or you can double down and push through.

I had a couple of weeks where it was super dark for me—about eight weeks—and all that got me through it was that I kept doubling down, fighting, pushing, doing double the work, and just going after it. I pulled out, I was okay, I bounced around, and I’m back on track. But I could have faltered. I could have given up. I could have thrown in the towel and said, “This is it.”

My favorite meme is the guy digging for diamonds. You can Google it: “digging for diamonds meme.” It shows a top picture of somebody digging through the wall, and they stop and call it quits for the day, walking the other way. The one on the bottom keeps digging, and guess what? On the other side are the diamonds, if they had just hit the wall one more time. The person above walked off because they were too tired—they had already dug this far, and they quit when it was that close to their opportunity. The other person kept digging and hit the wall of diamonds.

So double down and keep going. The moment will come. Some people get instant success; I’ve seen some of our friends just slay it, and kudos to them, good for you. I’m supportive. For others, it could take five years or ten years. I always look at Gandalf from Lord of the Rings. That dude had a 30-something-year acting career and was just kind of making it work. Then he reached a point where he landed Lord of the Rings, and now he’s one of the greatest actors to ever be, and that was when he was 64 years old. Until then, he was a junior actor, not doing really big deals, making ends meet as he could. Then one day, the right role opened up, he fit the part, and it changed. He went on to be in the Lord of the Rings trilogy and other movies, and it just worked.

So just know your moment will come.

John Smallmtn (42:31.569)

So wrapping up, a couple of rapid-fire questions. What advice would you give to a salesperson who wants to move into management?

Tom Slocum (42:45.638)

Start doing it already. The best advice I ever got when I was looking to go into management—I had a big ego, and I was told no on management for quite a while over the beginning of my career because I was so eager—the number one advice for me was: be a strong number two to the number one. When you always see the number one, always remember there’s somebody behind there making them look good, and that’s who you want to be. Be a good, strong number two.

So if you’re looking to go into management right now, don’t wait to get the job to start acting the job. Start meeting with your manager in one-on-ones. Master your stuff so that way you can start finding out how you can lift them up. “Hey John, what can I do this week to free you up? You’ve done so much for me. How can I help you? Are there reports I could be doing for you? Is there a deck that you need put together for the team? How can I support you?” Start being that strong number two and lifting off their plate.

Same with your teammates. How can you help them reach their goals? You’re halfway through your quota two weeks into the month—great. Now go start helping your team, because at the end of the day, when the presentation is delivered on what numbers were hit, I’m going to let y’all in on the secret: the management team never sees the individual number. They only see the team number. It’s a crazy thing that blew my mind entering the world, because I thought it was all about me and my numbers, and the reality was that slide deck just shows the number of the team. It doesn’t break down who got what; it just breaks down the team number, and you’re like, “Wait a minute, but I carried it.” Nobody gives a shit. They just want to know: Did the team hit or not?

So when you start getting yourself in a rhythm where you’re excelling and it’s kind of rinse-and-repeat to hit your numbers, start finding ways to support others then. Halfway through your quota, get on the phone for your team in their territory. Get them up, because at the end of the day, it’s going to be about the team number, not yours. Then figure out a way to support your manager, and then guess what? The day will come when they actually tap on your shoulder and say, “Hey, we want to move you into management.”

Another piece of advice is when that day comes, you want your team to say, “Oh John, that’s awesome, man. I kind of already thought you were. I didn’t know you weren’t. I assumed you were in that role already, but yeah, congrats, man. We can’t wait to have you.” Versus: “John got it? Oh, I don’t like that. Why did John…” You don’t want that taste at all. Get into the position where they already assume you were in that role, and they’re like, “Oh yeah, you got promoted to management? That’s a no-brainer, dude. Congrats. I’m glad they finally gave it to you; you’ve been doing that for months.” That’s the vibe you want. Not, “Oh, they gave it to John? What’s John done? Dude, he barely hits quota. He’s not even really doing much. What?” Don’t be that. Just be helpful to your team and your management, and find ways to do more. Then you will get that tap on the shoulder when you least expect it, because you’re already doing it.

Leadership is not a title. It doesn’t matter if you have it—it’s a behavior, man. It’s a behavior. If you were all on a plane—this isn’t to be morbid, but another piece of advice—if a plane went down, you crashed, and everybody survived, but you had to get out of that jungle, would they turn to you for help to lead them out of there, or who would they turn to? If you can say, “No, they’d turn to me, man. We’d land down, I’m ready to go. I’ve got John over there, I’ve got Tom over there, we’re going to make some shit happen, and we’re getting out of here,” then you know you’re on the right path. But if you’re like, “Ooh, no, they’re not going to turn to me. They’re probably going to go to Sarah, because she kind of…” then you know you’re not ready, right? You need to get to the point that you’re about your people. I don’t just teach you how to show up for others, because managing and leadership is about showing up for your people. It’s not about micromanaging numbers; it’s about genuinely wanting to lift up the people on your team, support them, and find ways to hit goals and win more often than you lose.

John Smallmtn (46:48.738)

Yeah, my jujitsu coach holds a very similar kind of thinking with how he talks about his progress. He’s a black belt, but he talked about every time he would get a stripe—which is an indication that you’re progressing, but you’re not at a new level, though it’s a clear indication for everyone else that you’re still progressing—he would take his off. Because whenever he got that new belt, he wanted everyone to be like, “Oh, I thought he was already there,” as opposed to “that guy’s getting promoted.”

I love that idea of: start doing the work now. Because until you can show yourself as someone who can do that work, you’re making it very easy to get shut out of all the management opportunities that you think you’re chasing down.

Same question, if I could, about going from management to launching your own thing: What’s the biggest takeaway, lesson, nugget, or improvement point you would give someone if they were thinking about doing that this year—hanging their own shingle and launching their own thing?

Tom Slocum (47:50.367)

Find three people that you can lock in with that will be there for you along the way. Get a board of directors. You don’t need a lot of people; don’t go chasing a lot of noise. Find people that have done this before. Don’t find people at your level or behind you, because unfortunately, it’s not going to be very helpful. They’re going to be good friends, but they can’t help you because they’re either in the same boat as you or they’re behind you.

My favorite advice is: don’t tell me how to tie my shoes unless you’ve been in my shoes. You can’t help me tie them if you haven’t worn them, so you don’t know. Find two or three people that can mentor you and be there for you when the going gets tough, because it’s going to get tough.

My best advice for you is: don’t go alone. Don’t do it, don’t jump in. Find some people that you can talk to on a regular basis. Find maybe one or two that have already done businesses before, that are a year or two years ahead of you, or maybe ran a couple of successful companies here and there. That can help you avoid a lot of mistakes and just walk you through the bad days, because you want those people to keep encouraging you. You don’t want to have a bad day and go to people that are going to tell you to bail out and feed the animal, because that’s a slippery slope and it can get real dark if you’re around that.

So I would say just make sure you’re in a good environment as you go alone. Make sure your environment is locked in, because it’s going to be a struggle. That’s what’s done it for me: my wife and I are fully locked in. We know the expectations and the path that we’re on. She is fully supportive, even through the ups and downs of it all. Then I have my two or three people that are way ahead of me that I can reach out to, who are guiding me. Anytime I come at them with bullshit, they shut it down real fast. They don’t let me do it. They’re like, “Don’t even come over here with that noise. Go find somebody else if you want that, because it ain’t going to be me.” And I need that.

John Smallmtn (49:53.018)

I talk about the same thing with people: qualified advice is worth seeking out and sitting in front of. Unqualified advice from people who haven’t done what you do—they don’t get it, they don’t understand it—has got to be filtered away. I tell people to go get a board of directors, and I also talk about the importance that it can’t be just one person.

My old sales coach—I love him to death. I am this person I am in large part because of what we’ve talked about and what he’s helped me with, but there are parts of the business that I need help on where I can’t take advice from him. I can’t even listen to him about it because they’re not tied to his view. For him, he’s an old-school sales guy, so the whole concept of having a personal brand on LinkedIn and creating content is an avoidance of prospecting activities to him. When I talk about marketing it, I can’t talk about that stuff with him because I know how he feels about it, and I also think his view is outdated and wrong.

So I don’t think it can be one person. I do think you have to be careful of having too many cooks in the kitchen where you end up asking for advice from unqualified people just because you think they might be able to give you something that’ll help. Go spend the time to find people that you can turn to and trust when it gets hard, who give you hard, critical advice. Because if you’re not willing to take the advice, they don’t need to be on that board.

Tom Slocum (51:27.119)

Nope. That’s why I say two to three—you don’t need a large number. Even two, so you can have that third view. There’s always three sides to every story. When you can get that, you have some direction: “All right, John said this, this person said this, I say this. Now I can cipher through all of that to get to where I need.”

Going to your point, too: also have faith in yourself. I was that way in my sales career. When the going got tough, I would self-destruct, go to everyone and their mother for advice, and shadow the top reps. One of my managers at Yelp one day changed my life. He was like, “Dude, stop. Trust yourself. Go do the hard work. Stop. You’ve wasted more time this week meeting with people, going to lunch with this person, and changing up your game plan than just doing the damn work, dude. Go do the work and let’s see what that does.”

Guess what I did? I went back in, canceled everything, just did the hard work, and freakin’ hit my quota. It was never that what I was doing changed. Just because it worked last week and stopped working this week doesn’t mean it didn’t work—it’s just a season. But you get so paranoid and you’re like, “Well, that track’s done,” or, “That process is cooked.” It’s not; it’s just a season. It’s okay.

You will always go find the side of the story you’re looking for. You will always find it. Just like with politics or any major topic of concern, you can go to Google and find a “no” to that topic, and you can find a “yes” to that topic. There is always going to be that.

Trust yourself, be willing to cipher through the feedback, and understand. That’s why I say pick people where the advice actually has some weight to it and you can cipher through it. I’m not going to go talk to somebody who’s never been a solopreneur and ask them for advice on what I’m going through when they’ve had a nine-to-five for the last 15 years. I can’t talk to them. But if I can go talk to a multimillionaire that’s on their third iteration of their business—they’ve raised three companies to two million like the back of their hand—”Hey, what can I do in this position?” “Hey, this is what I would do.” Okay, I can take that, learn from it, and apply it to my own process.

So if you’re going to jump in, find two or three people ahead of you. Maybe all three of them are behind you, next to you, and in front of you, so you can have those kinds of viewpoints. Even that’s fine, so you can read through it all. But also just remember: be true to you. Believe in your abilities, believe in your stuff, and just do the hard work sometimes. You don’t need to go find advice or go look for validation—just do the work and learn from it.

So, a board of directors and just doing the hard work, and you will be just fine. You will build a business; you will be okay. There will be seasons of ups and downs, but when you have that core board of directors and you have faith in your abilities, you’ll be good.

Journaling is the best thing I ever did while I was a solopreneur—writing stuff out, getting it out. It doesn’t mean you need to be posting content. Can you? Absolutely. I advocate for it as a solopreneur: go build a brand, it will help. But at the same time, don’t bottle up shit. Go write it down. It doesn’t matter where it goes from there, but just sit for 30 minutes and get whatever those ugly feelings or good feelings are on paper, get them out of the body, and release. Otherwise, you will just sit in toxicity, and it will get worse. Your environment will get so bad that you’re going to take yourself out of the game because you just don’t release it.

You don’t need to tell everybody everything—that’s not for your board of directors. Just go write it out. I was a blabbermouth; I was what Morgan Ingram calls a “yap-a-saurus,” which is a great word, by the way. But your people don’t have to be a therapist for you; that’s not what they’re there for. So just write it out, express it, and then crumble it up and throw it in the trash if you need to. It’s just like writing a bad email to your ex or somebody: you write it, but then you hit delete afterwards and you feel fantastic. You never sent it, you delete it, and you feel good.

That’s how I healed my relationship with my father. I sat down one day in a notepad on my phone and I got it all out. I never sent it anywhere, but that was a pivotal moment for me one night: to bear it out, write out those thoughts and feelings, and not critique or edit it, but just free-write what I was feeling about that situation. Now I’m at peace, and I don’t hold it anymore because I got it out.

John Smallmtn (56:27.486)

It took me a long time to get to the place where journaling was a helpful activity for me. I was doing it for a while because it was what cool people do—it was kind of like having a morning routine. Then it got real and made me better. I tell everybody: no one needs to hire me as a coach if they have a really great journaling practice. But if you don’t have a journaling practice, you’re not going to get very far without a coach, in my personal opinion.

We even have an agreement inside of my house—and I think this is important if you’re going to create a journaling habit—my family and I have an agreement: no one reads my journals. That allows me to have the space to dump my ideas and not be editing myself as I’m going through that process of trying to get it out of my head. That was super important to me, because I knew that I would write about it differently if I thought that anyone else was going to come back after it and take a look at it. Having that agreement if you’re in a family is super important in my opinion. Get it out of your head and then move on. Don’t dwell on it; you don’t need to go back to it.

Tom Slocum (57:34.303)

That’s the best way. Don’t look at journaling as anything else besides getting it out. You can even voice-note it; I know some people where that’s how they journal. They don’t even write—they just sit in a room or in their car wherever they can get some privacy, take a note for the day, and just talk about anything and everything. Get it out. They express how they’re feeling without any judgment, because it is a weird thing, but you have to get it out. If you keep it in that brain and in that soul, it will tear you apart. Put it into a bottle and send it off, man, and let it go.

That changed my life over the last couple months: just write it out, talk it out, share it. If I’m going through it, speak it out loud as if I’m in a conversation with somebody where they asked me, “Talk to me,” and I’m like, “All right, cool, let’s talk.” I just start letting it out, no matter how ugly it is. It doesn’t even matter. I’ve read some stuff back and I’m like, “God, I can’t believe that was in me,” or, “I thought that way of myself,” or, “This is how I was feeling.” But now I feel relieved—it’s gone. I wrote it out, it’s gone, it’s never to be seen again, I don’t have to think about it anymore, and I can move on now. It’s just a good release.

John Smallmtn (58:54.122)

Last question, Tom, and then I’ll let you go. I respect your time, and we’re going a little bit long here. I very much appreciate it. Other than journaling, what else do you do to be a high performer in the lanes that you’re in? Do you have any other habits that make you perform better? Do you have any other tricks of the trade that you have learned, harnessed, and still use because they provide such power for you?

Tom Slocum (59:25.607)

Mine is the gym. The gym for me is like my secret weapon. I don’t go to the gym to look good anymore, and I don’t do it for the ego side of it—I do it for the clarity and the focus. It’s having an hour to two hours uninterrupted. I don’t get on my phone, I put on a playlist, and I just get lost in it. My wife has made it very clear that I have to go to the gym; it’s night and day when I’m not, because it’s a good release for me. It’s my superpower: if I can get in the gym, I perform like nobody’s business.

When I’m not in the gym, I get into those dark places, locked in four walls. I’m busy, I don’t do stuff, and I don’t leave the house. Going to the gym allows me to get out, get some jams on, think about nothing except lifting, and just go do my thing. So that’s my secret weapon.

Also, listening and reading—learning from people that have done it before. Trying to dive into YouTube, reading, and listening to podcasts from people that have built multi-million-dollar businesses is a superpower for me, because I’m able to learn from them and understand. Like what we’re talking about right now: this is a great podcast to get into and be like, “All right, am I on the right path? Oh shit, all the things I’m feeling are what this person felt their first time around. Okay, I’m onto something here; I’m not crazy.” It helps.

I’m in community a lot. Community is my secret power. I love being around communities where there are other like-minded folks, because I can evolve, stay up on trends, and understand what the real questions are. You and I talked before about how when launching a business, you might build something you think the market needs, and then you find out what the market actually needs—and they might be two very different things, and that’s okay.

I went in one direction and I realized what they wanted. I fought it for a year, guys. I fought my business for a year. I rejected opportunities in business because I didn’t want to do this one thing, and then I realized: Why was I fighting that? Literally everybody is asking me for this thing. Now that I do this thing, it’s great! Everybody’s cool, they love it. So I’m like, “Okay,” but I fought it for a year.

Being around community, understanding it, and being in touch with where your prospects and clients live gives you a leg up because you’re able to listen. Once you let the ego go, you’re like, “Oh, they really need this. Let me go spin this up for them.” It’s what they want and need, versus what you think.

Journaling, gym, book reading, and community are my four pillars. As long as I’m mixed into those, I’m doing okay, I’m surviving, and I’ve got a pulse on where I’m going. I can get through the dark days and the great days.

Then just having my family—that’s my superpower. My wife is my rock, man. I’m very fortunate, especially when I’ve watched friends jump into this and it’s destroyed their marriage and their relationships. I can’t speak on their behalf, but it’s just different, and it can be challenging. My wife has been a stay-at-home mom for 15 years; she doesn’t work, so it’s all on me. When I made this choice to do this, she was all in, and she’s down for the ride for the long term, not the short term. There are weeks, months, and days where it’s been rough, but we’re locked in, we know that, and we’ve communicated through that. I think that’s a big leg up for me that I have that support, and she’s not even in this world.

John Smallmtn (01:03:09.070)

I think that’s the second sale. The first sale is that you’re enough to do this, and the second one is going and making sure that your family and support circle are also on board with you. My wife is so supportive: she’s the editor of my book, she works on my team, she does client work, and she’s amazing. I can’t even imagine what it would be like trying to do all this stuff in a sweat to figure it out while not getting that support from your spouse, significant other, or family. It’s such an important part, and some people just take it for granted, like, “Hey, we’re going to smash this thing, and you’re going to be fine with it.” You can’t do it that way and expect it to be there. Tom, man, thank you so much.

Tom Slocum (01:03:56.775)

You have to communicate. Communication is the biggest piece of a solo journey, whether it’s talking to your board of directors, friends, yourself, or your spouse and family throughout the entire thing, because it’s a big piece of it. Otherwise, you just find yourself inside four walls in the darkest pits that you’ve never been in before, and it can take you out. I’ve seen it, and I’ve seen some go very dark into addiction, alcohol, and making bad decisions. Just talk, get it out, and don’t go alone. Don’t go alone.

If you don’t have a family and kids and you’re solo, get a business coach, a mentor, or a therapist—whatever it may be—but have an outlet. Don’t just be with your friends; they’re great for the exit of the world. I have my non-SaaS, non-tech, non-sales friends that are the best outlet for me sometimes, but I also can’t go to them for advice on shit. They don’t know; they don’t get it. My wife doesn’t even have the time—half her advice, I’m like, “Yeah, I can’t do that in the sales world. That’s not going to fly.” She’s like, “Well, it should.” And I’m like, “It can’t. I appreciate it, but it’s not going to go that way. I can’t do that.” But just communicating is key.

John Smallmtn (01:05:17.598)

In those moments, especially when it’s your spouse—my wife will come in like, “Well, we can just do it this way.” It’s like, “Hey, I hear you, and oh my God, do I love you, but we’re not doing that. It wouldn’t work.” It’s the hardest feedback you’re going to give to anybody, because they think they’re helping. People who are giving unqualified advice honestly think, “Oh, this is all you’ve got to do.” It’s like, “You don’t think we tried that?” The fact that you’re not in this lane and you came up with that within 30 seconds should probably indicate to you that everyone has already done that, and the reason why not everyone is continuing to do it is because it didn’t work out that well.

Tom, thank you so much for the time, man, and for hopping in here and playing it face up. This is hard. It’s harder than people think it’s going to be, and no one is ready for it, which is why I’m doing this show. I really respect you for sharing so openly and honestly about your path, the struggles, and that you’re still out here swinging. I really appreciate it more than I can say, and I’m so excited to get this out here in a few weeks.

Where should people come to hang out with you? Where’s your hub of community? How can people get in touch with you? Send them in the right direction.

Tom Slocum (01:06:43.131)

For me, it’s LinkedIn, man. I’m living there. It’s a place that is very dear to me; I’ve built a life and a community over there. That’s how you and I crossed paths. I think we actually came from Twitter first, and then we found each other on LinkedIn and at a couple of events. But LinkedIn or Twitter is where I’m at. You can DM me. I’m an approachable guy, as you guys can probably tell. I’m very down to earth. I might not get back to you right away, but I’m here, and I’ll always welcome a conversation. So yeah, Tom Slocum on LinkedIn. From there, you can get on my profile, find my company, find my newsletter, and find everything you need about me. But come chop it up with me on LinkedIn; I’m here.

John Smallmtn (01:07:24.438)

Perfect, man. Thank you so much. I really appreciate your time.

Tom Slocum (01:07:27.939)

Absolutely, brother. Thanks for having me, and thanks to all of you who chose to listen this far.

John Smallmtn (01:07:32.803)

Cheers.