John SmallMtn (00:00)

Welcome to another episode of Founders Growth. My name is John Hill, aka Small Mountain. I’m the founder of Adapted Growth. And today on the show, we have Michele Lambert. She is the founder of Bella Connections, and she helps small business owners, especially in the internet marketing space, get connected to the teams that they’re looking to build so that way they can have the outcomes that they’re looking for. Michele, can you talk a little bit more about who you work with specifically in this space?

Michele Lambert (00:23)

Yeah, so Bella Connections specifically is helping place talent for seven- to eight-figure business owners. We do work with some nine-figure as well, but we’re heavy in the direct response, direct-to-consumer, e-comm kind of space. We do a little bit of coaching as well, but really for internet marketers and online business owners, that founder or creative lead that is just really struggling to get things done and ready to offload some tasks. We’re going to hire your marketing right hand, your operations leader, marketing leaders, as well as creative and support talent.

John SmallMtn (00:54)

Perfect. Okay, so I am very excited to talk with you because I have the belief that hiring is one of the hardest parts about growing a business, right? In my experience on the sales side, people either wait way too long or they try to do it way too early. But I’m curious, let’s zoom out a little bit from sales. What are the hard parts and what do people kind of struggle with when it comes to hiring when they’re a founder?

Michele Lambert (01:23)

Yeah, so it definitely depends on the stage of your business you’re in. But let’s say you’re like early seven or low eight figures. So let’s start with early seven. Say you’ve grown it this far, but you’re still the one who’s doing all the things on the marketing side. You’re still leading the team. You have a media buyer, you have a copywriter, you have all these people, but you’re the one managing them. You’re also doing the strategy and all the details. And you’re the founder, so you’re also doing operations and everything else.

So right there, we’re going to look at somebody who’s a little bit more marketing operations focused so they can oversee the team, they can have the big picture strategy, they can still collaborate with the founder on the strategy, but they’re going to be the ones who are actually executing and ensuring the implementation of it. So, you know, watching all those pieces, managing the project management tools—unless you have a project manager to support them, which is always really helpful, especially when you’re growing to eight figures, then you’re going to really want somebody to support them a little heavier on the actual project management side.

But yeah, really what you’re looking for and the biggest thing that people struggle with is letting go of control. We all think we can do it best. And there’s points where, yeah, you got it to this point doing what you do because you’re so good at it. But if you can’t rely on the systems and the foundation that you set, as well as the right people to put it into play, you’re never going to grow past where you are. And you might even go further down, unfortunately.

John SmallMtn (02:26)

Oof.

So jumping in here for just a second, because you hit on something that is kind of something I’m seeing a lot here recently. A lot of people are going after very specific people. And in marketing, that can mean that you’ve got someone who’s doing your copywriting, you might have someone else who’s doing your media buying, you might have someone else that’s working on everything else like this. And I talk with a lot of people, and they really like having high levels of expertise in a siloed approach.

But what I think some people kind of miss out on is that if everyone is siloed, you got to have that kind of unifying conduit above those silos, right? And if you’re not good at that, you might really appreciate the difference that a media buyer, copywriter, creative ad specialist, and stuff like that make, but you can spend all of your time managing all of these people to make sure that they work very well together.

What is your—how do people avoid that kind of idea of over-siloing people and then still kind of being a manager of things that they maybe shouldn’t be managing?

Michele Lambert (03:55)

Yeah, so I think a lot of that comes from really ownership. You want to be able to empower your team to take ownership over what their expertise and their skill set is, but you also need collaboration. And I would go as far as to say it’s not just marketing department collaboration—that’s important to have regularly as well—but you also want your customer support, your sales team, your operations team, because they all have insights directly into the customer, your ideal avatar, who you’re talking to that’s going to support the marketing department.

John SmallMtn (04:13)

Mm-hmm.

Michele Lambert (04:25)

As well as production and deployment of everything, and how that supports the marketing department and how you are talking to people.

So in the end, what I suggest is set up regular meetings that are across the marketing team. Have different themes for different meetings and clear agendas for every meeting that you go into. You’re not just going in to have a weekly meeting that is just there. You have to have real clarity on what you’re talking about. Are you going over high-level ideas? Are you going over structures? What is the exact intent, and what are you trying to get from this? You can have a bigger team meeting on everything that’s talking about strategy, bringing in insights they’re seeing from other departments and things like that as well.

But in terms of, especially in the remote space and internet marketers, we like to be in our own little space, in our own little world. We’re all over the world. We like to work autonomously most of the time, and a lot of people want to have their own ability and flexibility of work. So in order to do that, it’s allowing them the autonomy, but you really have to empower them to have ownership of decisions that are for their specific department or their role.

In order to do that, you have to set the right strategy, have the right leadership in place with real clarity not only on the company values, but the direction and the strategy that you are currently taking in order for people to make clear decisions and be able to own their own projects really from leadership down. So leadership being clear, leadership being able to have those collective collaborative calls, but then also having people be able to go off and make those ownership decisions and be available if they have questions on the decision or if they’re unsure. Making sure that they have that clarity as well, I think, is helpful.

John SmallMtn (06:17)

I love that. And I love the idea that the meeting is for a purpose, right? So having a very clear agenda for that meeting, and it’s not just a vibe check. And it also, in my opinion, shouldn’t just be like, “Well, let’s look at the scoreboard,” right? There should be some context as to why the scoreboard is sitting in that way so that way everyone can be moving forward.

When someone comes to you and they’re a founder—and we’re going to dive into your founder path here in just a minute—but I’m just kind of curious, because we’re not in the exact same space, but there’s a lot of overlap in what we do. When people come to you and they’re trying to make a hire, what is the first thing you kind of have to talk about with them to make sure that they’re set up for success?

Michele Lambert (07:03)

Yeah, that’s a big one there. So clarity before you hire is key. I mean, it’s key to everything that you’re doing. You have to be clear in order to lead a team, but especially to bring new team members on. Knowing exactly your company values, how your company culture is, and how you operate. If you’re expecting one thing and you get something else, it’s because your desired outcomes aren’t dialed in. Your clear ideal candidate avatar is not dialed in. You’re not clearly stating exact specifics about the role requirements, which includes availability and everything else that goes into this.

Getting super clear not only on the role requirements and your expectations, but what are your desired outcomes for 30, 60, 90 days? I also do six months and a year so people know what goals they’re trying to hit. That helps set you up for the onboarding KPIs as well. And so you’re really approaching this from a point of, “This is the data that I’m looking for in order to evaluate performance on who that person is.”

With AI and everything, you can use all kinds of tools to develop the ideal candidate avatar. We’ve developed some tools too that give you everything from motivational traits and personality profiles to background experience and all that as well, which really shows you exactly who you’re looking for. And then once you’re clear on the specific role, the requirements, the type of person that you need, and the onboarding structure—like what this role is going to own and what the KPIs are for it—then starting to look at candidates and start the hiring process. But if you’re not clear before and you’re just hiring from a super reactive state, you’re going to have somebody who isn’t around for the long haul, and you’re not going to be happy with the performance in the long run the majority of the time.

John SmallMtn (08:51)

Do you get a lot of—we were kind of talking about this before turning on the recording—there’s so much information now about different working types, personality types, and everything, as you touched on a second ago. We were talking about the visionary entrepreneur, right? And people that are trying to be in that visionary status and want to maintain that level of being innovative and forward-thinking and stuff like that. Do you find that a lot of people are trying to hire from like a scramble? They’re just trying to get things off of their plate as opposed to coming in with, “Okay, here’s the role, here’s the scorecard, here’s the expectations for that”?

Michele Lambert (09:35)

Yeah, I feel like a lot of—well, at least the positions that don’t last, the positions that don’t work out for the long haul—those are typically fractional roles that are hired for anyway, so a lot of times it’s a project-based thing. But yeah, if you come into it from a reactive state without total clarity, scorecards, and all this kind of stuff, you’re really not setting yourself or that new team member up for success. Because they don’t know what’s clear. They might have one idea of what the KPIs and objectives are, where yours are completely different.

To really bring solid clarity around that, you need everybody on the same page. And that’s why we start with desired outcomes, setting the right KPIs and the scorecard. And then from there, really just making sure—personality profiles specifically, I did mention that, I put weight on it, but not a ton. That’s not everything because, as you know, you can take those and maybe at different states of your life or different mental states, they may adjust a little bit. It’s not the end-all-be-all: “This person matches everything, I’m going to hire them for this.”

But it is a useful tool to see, “These are the personalities that fit well with this.” Is this somebody who’s motivated towards something? Is this somebody who’s motivated away from something? Is this somebody who’s going to really be more of a mechanic in terms of the Wealth Dynamics, or are they more of a creative who is not as much going to be on the structural side of things? There’s a lot of pieces that you can look at and utilize these tests for, like Kolbe scores.

Say you need a visionary, for example. A visionary is going to be a really high Quick Start with a low Follow Through, and usually around middle ground of the other two, like Fact Finder and things like that. If you are hiring for an integrator, you do not want them to have the same score as you, especially the same scores as a visionary. Because a high Quick Start with a low Follow Through on an integrator means that they’re going to be just the same as you: constantly running new ideas, starting the implementation, and then nothing gets completed. So you really need the opposite of your score if you’re hiring your right-hand operations integrator kind of person.

So just understanding the different types of people and how we all operate differently, and then how we operate in relation to each other to build a really cohesive team.

John SmallMtn (11:54)

I love that. We do a lot of personality stuff in all of our client work, right? Because until I think you really know who you are, I think most people just kind of assume that everyone is more similar than they are. Or it’s also super easy, I find, to kind of think that you’re the only person with this unique set of concerns, strengths, difficulties, and everything.

Personality stuff was honestly what got me unlocked as far as realizing that there was a different path and a different way for me to work. And like you, I don’t use them in a black-or-white kind of blanket way either, right? But I do find that they’re very good to test someone’s awareness. Being aware in a sales role is very, very, very important, right? And it’s super easy to just fall into your personality patterns and routines and have the same consistent struggles.

It goes deeper than a personality assessment, so we use them to try to figure out, “Do you resonate with this?” Because if you’re thinking that it’s all wrong, there’s probably some bigger gaps and challenges coming down the pipe.

What made you want to work in this space? I’m always curious about the backstory. Was there something you unlocked in your own growth and marketing and hiring that led you down this path, or was this just a need you saw and wanted to work on?

Michele Lambert (13:22)

Yeah, I mean, it’s kind of funny. It is definitely a long path and road, and I’ve had a lot of offshoots and different kind of businesses I started. But really how I got into the online business, internet marketing space was back in 2012. I was working for a doctor, an integrative practitioner, and he really wanted to be a New York Times bestseller, have an online business, do all these things. And it was exciting, it was fun. He asked me to be the right-hand operations person to lead that, so he hired me as the operations leader.

And I knew—I had been working with him in the office for like 10 years at this point. So I knew him, I knew the products, I knew what we were testing. We were doing clinical tests in office, we were developing product lines, different program structures, all that kind of stuff, and we were ready to bring it online. So I was actually super blessed and lucky that the COO and CMO of JJ Virgin’s businesses at the time stepped in to help train me to help us build this online business.

Our first launch was actually a New York Times bestseller. We sold 9,000 books in 36 hours.

John SmallMtn (14:26)

Wow.

Michele Lambert (14:27)

I stayed up all night just clicking the button, making sure we didn’t go over. We crushed it, it was so much fun. I loved it, I was so excited, really addicted to it after that point—the rush of it all. I loved building the product lines. We had a lot of custom physical products as well as digital products and all that kind of stuff. And it was just really fun to get to bring that out to people when I’d already seen the impact that it made on so many people in office, and then seeing it hit thousands of people from here.

And I still run into people at events and things like that who are like, “I read that book,” or “You were part of that book launch, I love that book. It still helps me to this day,” like over ten years later. So it was a really powerful moment for me of understanding the impact of what digital marketing and online business can bring to people and how it can really help people, especially in what I feel is a pretty broken healthcare system where we can actually bring a lot of integrative, natural health and medicine and healing ways to help each other.

And it’s not just that. So from there, I’ve of course helped launch a lot of different products and programs and things like that in the integrative health space, which is one of the spaces I love. And then I started joining a bunch of new masterminds in the last five, six years. Those included a lot of direct response marketing, understanding how that works and being able to bring it into this integrative health side of business and life and building.

I was just meeting amazing people at all these masterminds. I started a list of people on a spreadsheet that I could connect when businesses asked, and it was just fun for me. So I built that out and made my Rolodex, and that eventually became an actual full-on Rolodex. We’ve got over 1,500 internet marketers on it now. We use it to really connect businesses with talent, and it was just a natural thing that I was doing: connecting people.

A former mentor of mine actually suggested that I start this recruiting side of things for the internet marketing space. So we really have been focusing the last four years on team building primarily. I still do consulting on the health building business side, but team building is where we’ve put our main focus and energy at this time. So yeah, it’s been a fun journey.

John SmallMtn (16:29)

Mm-hmm. Interesting.

That is my favorite part of doing these interviews and talking to all the guests: “How did we get to here?” Right? Because it’s never as clean and as clear a path as the business profiles make it out to be. Everyone has got maybe a couple of things that didn’t work out or didn’t go according to plan, or maybe there was a pivot or three along the way.

Michele Lambert (17:01)

Yeah.

John SmallMtn (17:03)

And it’s helpful, because one of the things you and I talked about in the pre-call was talking about learning from the lessons when it doesn’t work out—like not framing it as a failure and beating yourself up. I’m curious, how does that show up for you? How have you gotten better at not beating yourself up and just kind of staying in experimental mode?

Michele Lambert (17:24)

Yeah, that’s a big one, because a lot of the reason that I do focus on recruiting now is there were some big lessons, some big burnouts—honestly, some physical burnouts. I would say it’s learning from those and understanding what my capacity is, what I really want my ideal life to look like, and how I can achieve that in a way that encompasses the things that excite me most.

In terms of those lessons and kind of pushing forward, there’s a funny meme I saw the other day. It was this guy who’s walking up these stairs, right? And he falls over, bounces off a trampoline, bounces back up a couple stairs down, and walks a couple more stairs up.

John SmallMtn (18:07)

I’ve seen this.

Michele Lambert (18:12)

Yeah, and he’s just back and forth. And then even when he hits the top, he still falls down, and it takes him a few times bouncing and bouncing and bouncing to come all the way back to the top. It’s like if you just give up at every failure, every last attempt, then you’re really missing your full potential and you’re not really fulfilling or seeing your dream through.

You have to really anchor in what you’re striving for and what your ultimate goal is. Once you’ve anchored into that ultimate goal, it’s just figuring out ways to make it happen. So if you fail at one thing, that’s not a failure; it’s a lesson. It’s a chance to look at it and say, “Okay, where did this not work, and how can I do this better next time?”

Because if you talk to most business owners, they’ve had at least 10 different failed businesses. I started an Amazon FBA monkey pillow business, I started a craft business, I have started so many side things outside of this internet marketing thing. You try all these little things, see what didn’t work, and figure out the steps and feedback you can use to improve it, implement it in a new way, and be able to really see that ultimate dream of yours. For most entrepreneurs, included, it’s freedom—time freedom and my ability to travel and do the things that I love. So it’s anchoring in that in the end.

John SmallMtn (19:34)

Nice. Okay, you know, we’ve kind of talked about it a couple of times as an aside so far, but it is super easy to get off the path, right? And that might mean chasing new software, as we were talking about before turning on the recording, or it might be chasing every shiny AI tool or whatever the current fad is. How have you gotten better at cultivating focus so that way you consistently get to where you’re wanting to go? How do you get better at shutting down the shiny object syndrome yourself?

Michele Lambert (20:10)

Yeah, so I think there are definitely opportunities and times where we do need to look at things, reevaluate, and possibly implement some new systems and structure. What we had talked about is the importance of keeping what’s working going while you’re doing that. You can’t just burn it all down and say, “Hey, we’re going to try this,” and then it takes six months of testing a new project, especially with AI. Now everybody’s trying a million different new things, and that’s good; we should be. But you need to keep what’s working rolling at the same time, too.

So that’s one thing. And then with AI, too, I think there’s a lot of system optimization out there and ways that we can really improve our workflow. The more you and your team are empowered by AI, the more productivity you have and the more ability you have to help more people, grow your business, scale, and all that good stuff.

One thing that I also find super helpful with this shiny ball syndrome that we were talking about—I learned this from another mentor—is allow yourself to chase the shiny balls that excite you, but at least once a quarter, once a month, whatever works for you, sit down and fully evaluate what you have on your plate and what actually is contributing to your bottom line. And what that bottom line is—whether that’s financially, time freedom, whatever your ultimate goals are. So see what is actually contributing to that and ruthlessly cut anything that is not.

It gives you a little space to play a bit, but don’t get too deep into other things that are distracting you from the core that matters the most. Personally, I always set aside structured time to focus on my core, and then I have a little bit of time within my schedule specifically for big-picture ideas, trying new things, testing new angles, whatever it is. Just don’t let go of the core to think something else is going to be the new shiny ball. I guess that is what helps me.

John SmallMtn (22:04)

I love that. Yeah, that’s super helpful. Shifting gears just a little bit. One of the things that I’m excited to talk to you about is I know everybody has a different process to hiring. I know some people say, “Outsource your weaknesses first, hold on to your greatness until the very last thing.” And then I know other people who preach the other approach: the thing that you’re strongest at is what you know best, so it’s probably easiest to put together a process and hand it off to someone else.

How does Michele think about these two very different approaches to hiring, growth, and scale? Is one better than the other? Does it depend upon the person? How do you think about that with your clients?

Michele Lambert (22:52)

I think it definitely depends on the person. The second one sounds a little wild to me, to be quite honest. The way that I approach it, first of all, is I ask people to look at what their actual bottlenecks are and what they love most. Where is your genius zone?

I have a task audit that I do, and I have people fill it out about how much time every task takes and rate it. For a little over a week, just hold it next to you, even if you’re just jotting things down or actually filling this out—whatever is easier. Figure out what tasks you’re actually doing and rate them on how much enjoyment you get out of them. Genius zone is important, and so is your enjoyment of what you’re doing.

Once you’ve discovered what pieces are bottlenecking you—even if it’s one thing that takes five minutes—the time isn’t as important as the mental bandwidth of switching between tasks. There’s only so much bandwidth we have. Really, you have a core focus of around four hours a day of quality productivity time. Outside of that, some little tasks and calls come in. But for the most part, you want to protect your genius zone and where the biggest needle movers for your business and yourself are.

So if you absolutely love this one thing, it lights you up to do it, and it’s something you’re really great at, keep it. Find the things that drag you down and find the right people to put in place for that. Whether that’s creating the direct process for them or working within their process and ensuring it fits your business, it doesn’t really matter, as long as you’re focused on getting the right tasks on your plate and the wrong ones off.

John SmallMtn (24:39)

Auditing can be one of those periods where we get a lot of awareness about some of the things holding us back. Do you ever get anybody coming in with the idea of, “I have to do this, it’s got to be me,” when it’s not really something that they should be doing? Do you run into that all the time?

Michele Lambert (25:00)

All the time, all the time. Yeah, that’s one of the biggest things, especially with founders, creators, or marketing leaders who have grown and scaled a business because of their ability and strength in marketing. They grew it to seven or eight figures—this was their brain. To get them to replace that is incredibly difficult. That’s why it’s finding the pieces that are dragging them down and are less important for them to focus on, and really letting them focus on those big needle movers, the genius zones that excite them, and the places where their mind is most important to be in, optimizing their time for that.

One of our clients, we did this with them. It saved him about 15 to 20 hours a week. He had a new baby and was able to spend time with his family. It was pretty intense. What we had to do took a little bit of time with this one because they built this to eight figures, and it was a really high level. But we started bringing in the right people to take the little tasks off. Those right people, at the end of the day, cost them less than $8,000 a month, and they were able to save 15 to 20 hours a week.

Now, for most business owners, imagine what you can do with those 15 to 20 hours a week, especially if you’re that good of a creative and marketer that you’re able to grow to eight figures. The amount of new testing, projects, and things that you could launch with the right support—who can actually manage the implementation—is huge.

So it’s just seeing where people are getting stuck. Most of the time for founders, creators, and marketing leadership, it is in the actual implementation management. That’s where that operational right hand—a project manager, marketing manager, or whatever it is—is super supportive in overseeing the rest of the team, ensuring projects go through, and making sure you have the right data tracking to see what you need to see in order to make the right decisions. Yeah, it’s definitely an interesting place to play.

John SmallMtn (27:19)

Thinking about that one person specifically, you said that they’re still very much a part of it and invested in everything. How important is it for the founder or the leadership people to have meaningful investment? I talk to a lot of people who want to be a CEO and run a business, not because they have concern or any deep subject matter expertise, but just because they want to be in charge.

Do you think that works, or do you think people need to have deep buy-in in one of the areas to really get to the levels that people are coming to you with?

Michele Lambert (28:08)

I think—well, maybe I need a little clarification on your question, too. Do you mean they just started and want to be that business owner CEO, or did they have a specific expertise and want to grow into that? Can you explain a little bit more?

John SmallMtn (28:25)

Yeah, for sure. The term “disruptors” is popular in a lot of my conversations. People will see a perceived gap in the market and want to go after that thing. But it doesn’t come from a place like your story, of falling into it and finding a lane within it. They’re just in it for the wrong reasons, right? They just want to run a business so they can feel in charge. They might have a great idea, but they don’t really have that “this is important to me” mindset, or they’re trying to outsource everything so they don’t actually have any tasks inside of it. Does that help?

Michele Lambert (29:17)

Yeah. A friend of mine was recently trying to buy a business because they thought the same thing: “If I’m the business owner, I’ll just delegate. I’ll hire an operations manager, I’ll hire these people to do all the things, and then I’ll be out of it.”

The reality is, if you talk to any business owner, that is not their lifestyle. That takes years of building to be able to step away to that point. Even then, a lot of owners who step away and hire a CEO or somebody else find it’s not the best decision for them in their business. It doesn’t always work out. It’s actually a risky move to make if you don’t have the right structure and team in place.

All of that starts with company values, alignment, a mission, and a vision. That’s how you attract the right team members and the right clients or customers. If you don’t have the right mission, vision, and values, then you’re just shooting in the dark and guessing. Everybody is floundering a bit, and nobody is totally clear. If you’re not totally clear and you’re just trying to make money because you see a gap, you’re not aligned to something that’s going to sustain long-term when the nights get long, when the weekends are overrun, and when your stress levels go through the roof.

You need to have the right team alignment to keep people on long-term. The team members who last years and years are aligned with the vision, excited about the results they’re seeing and getting for people, believe in the mission, and are aligned to the values. Values are so important. I know a lot of people speak to this, but it really matters to actually scale a business.

If you’re thinking, “I see this gap, I can make it happen,” there has to be a reason how you can do that. Maybe some people can say, “I’m going to align on it because I’m going to make a lot of money, and that’s the value I’m looking for.” Then you’re going to attract that kind of team member who is looking to make money in that one little area where you found a place to create something. But then everything becomes about money. When money is tight or more money is offered elsewhere because they’re doing a great job, they’re going to move on to that next opportunity if you don’t have the right culture in place.

So it’s not impossible, but it’s not recommended.

John SmallMtn (31:57)

Yeah, that’s fair.

I’m a big fan of values as well. It’s been super helpful on my own path to slow things down and try to understand the values of an organization so I can bring in the right person.

When people come to you and haven’t done the clarity work to really understand their values, do you help them get clear on their values? Or is there a book or a program that you recommend or refer people to that helps them get that clear?

What drives me crazy is when it’s table-stakes stuff like “service.” Okay, cool, you’re in a service-driven business, so you have to take care of your clients and customers. Where do you refer people, or how do you help them get clear on the values that really matter to them on a day-to-day basis?

Michele Lambert (32:56)

That’s where AI is amazing. We’ve built a ton of tools around clarifying your values, including a mission, vision, and values worksheet. Even before AI, I had all these worksheets and stuff that I still let people run through. I’ve developed that into some new AI tools that they can run through. You can also just work with AI directly by answering the right questions. But make sure that when you do, you ask it for no fluff and true, deep clarity on your values and your business.

Personally, I like to do a lot of journaling around that, and I suggest that for most people because journaling is a big help for me. I find that’s a little bit more helpful than going straight to AI. When you only use AI for everything, your mind starts to get a little clouded, your creativity lessens, and it gets a little frustrating.

I’m sure you’ve noticed where you start getting suggestions, you’re overwhelmed by them, and they don’t actually align with who you are all the time or what you’re trying to put out there. So I still like the worksheets and give them out. We have some free ones—I think it’s bellaconnections.com/hire. Those assets are there, and it walks you through it so you can build it all out yourself along with the AI tools.

John SmallMtn (34:14)

Perfect. I love that.

I love talking about this because there are a lot of options and room to become reliant on systems. But I’m nervous for the general public with how easy it is to become super reliant on AI. It becomes this thought partner, and while that can be helpful, I carry a journal everywhere I go. I don’t want to become so reliant on having an engine doing all the heavy lifting for me. Eventually, that’s going to be what everybody is doing. If your entire thought loop is just what is in any one of these systems, we’re only getting out the same things that everyone else is getting.

Whereas if you’re part of the process in a deeper, more meaningful way, there’s still a lot of room to keep your skills sharp and not get lost in all the slop that is rampant—from content to websites being built this way.

Let’s talk about journaling for just a second. Do you journal regularly, or do you just use it as a creative or clarity process? What does that look like for you?

Michele Lambert (35:43)

All of the above. Journaling literally changed my life. It’s so important and helpful.

In 2020, when the pandemic first happened, I honestly had a mental breakdown. I was in the middle of launching a summit with a hundred people promoting. Ten days before, we found out the platform we were using wasn’t going to show us the right conversions we needed. While we had those hundred affiliates promoting, we rebuilt an entire summit platform during the pandemic. When everything came down at once, I had a mental break and stepped away from everything for a little bit.

One of the biggest tools my doctor gave me was journaling. That’s where I finally started hearing my voice, feeling like myself, and being able to talk through things and see through things.

Personally, every night I do an end-of-day reflection. It started with just one positive of the day. Then a friend of mine suggested writing down the top five accomplishments of the day so you’re not just going to bed thinking about to-do lists—you’re thinking about accomplishments. Often I start my mornings with gratitude. Or if my mind is super busy, I have a cheap knockoff computer that I purchased solely for journaling and mind-dumping everything in my head.

Often that brings clarity and gratitude by reversing whatever negative thoughts are happening. I’m able to talk it out, get clarity, and go deeper by asking, “Why does that matter? Why is this?” I keep asking “why” until I get to the root cause. That helps with business, personal life, mental health—so many things.

I have journals all over my house: in my hiking bags, in my purses, everywhere. I have a journal just for travel, so when I’m hiking, traveling, or exploring, I make a quick note of the moments that just happened to remember and look back on them. I don’t really look back and read most of it, but putting it on paper helps me remember better, and it increases your creativity.

When I have a post I want to write, I blurt it all in my journal and then come back and write it quickly—it takes just minutes. If I just put it in AI, I feel my creativity drop within a few days. It feels like I can’t think for myself sometimes.

John SmallMtn (38:44)

My path of journaling is frighteningly similar. I was working with a sales coach who was huge on journaling, and I was like, “I don’t really need that.” For the first two years of working with him, I was adamant that I didn’t need it and that he was just supposed to help me close more deals.

Then I finally started to do it, largely because I kept hearing other people talking about it. I was new to all of this stuff, listening to every podcast I could, and it seemed like every guest talked about their journaling habit. So I decided to try it.

In the beginning, it was very transactional just to try to build a habit around it. Then I stopped doing it for a while because I felt like I had topped out and it wasn’t helping me anymore. It had stopped helping because I was doing it for the wrong reasons—keeping a log because that’s what other people do, thinking if it helped them, it would help me, versus really getting into how it needed to look to help me day to day.

During COVID, I started reading The Obstacle Is the Way by Ryan Holiday. He talks about how Marcus Aurelius, in the middle of a war campaign, went into his tent to write for no one other than himself. I had a moment of seeing all the hypocrisy around my efforts of avoiding it. So I decided to figure out what it needed to look like for me, and it fundamentally changed everything.

Now it’s very loose and Socratic—I’m just asking myself questions to get down to the root cause. Sometimes I don’t even answer the questions, but having that open space has been super helpful. I have some journals that are just for stream of consciousness that I don’t ever go back and look at.

It’s nice to have different styles of journals. Much like you, I have journals for everything: one for guitar, one for woodworking. They’ve all got their specific places in my room.

I talk with a lot of people who don’t have any reflective practices, and that makes the path of being a founder so much harder because you don’t have any look-back.

Switching gears a little bit… Please go ahead.

Michele Lambert (00:41:21)

I just want to add to that, because I find what you’re saying—especially with the look back… The stream of consciousness I rarely do, but there is something that I do with that. A lot of times business ideas, solving problems, and all that kind of stuff come out when you’re just letting it all out. When I do, I just put two stars next to it in the beginning if it’s something I know I need to do. Then I come back to it and pull that out of my notes so I don’t have to go through the whole thing. I pull out the little two-asterisk places and pull those into whatever I need to do, and from there I can actually take that to implementation.

I do that with any kind of notes I do, whether I’m watching something or whatever—that’s just my method. I do that in my written ones, too. I’ll put a little star at the top of the page if it’s something that I know that I want to come back to and do. So actually making sure that I come back and implement some of those things is still super important, and that’s just a fast, easy way to ensure you’re getting it done.

John SmallMtn (00:42:30)

For a long time, I would procrastinate on journaling because there was this thing in my head like, “It’s got to be perfect, and it’s got to look a certain way.” Now, I mean, it’s all over the place. Sometimes there are little diagrams, little asterisks, and stars and stuff. Because if I’m going to use it for reference, I need to make it easy to come back and use it for reference.

And this took me a very long time: I need to be okay with the fact that thoughts are going to come as they’re going to come. While I might be doing a brain dump, a to-do might show up that I need to get done. Being able to jot it down and move past it versus thinking, “Well, I’m not allowed to be thinking about that stuff now, that goes in this other journal,” is key. Just build the practice of getting it out of your head, take the perfection off of it, and just use it for improvement. Don’t think about trying to make it perfect, because it’s probably not going to be, and that’s okay.

Michele Lambert (00:43:27)

I love that. Being okay with it not being perfect is also a practice that’s super important for business owners, because it goes back to everything that we’re talking about with hiring and everything else. You have to get used to the fact that not everything is going to be perfect in business—failed attempts and all these things. Perfect is not the goal. The goal is to learn the lessons, take action, and see what works for you.

Part of that, especially if you’re going to be starting a journaling process—which I recommend everyone do… My mom just started, and she was like, “This is the best thing. You’ve been telling me for years this is the best thing ever.” And I was like, “Yeah, I know. Everything I say is right.” No, I’m kidding. I’m perfect. No, just kidding!

Because it can be so overwhelming for people, I would highly suggest starting with just one thing. Choose one thing: choose one piece of gratitude in the morning, or choose one positive from the day. Just start with one little thing and commit to doing that daily. That spirals into, “This is just something I actually enjoy doing,” and it becomes part of your habits.

Especially when I’m traveling or doing certain things, I’ll go through my photos of the day—I often put them in stories or something like that—and then I go and journal what that experience was. That really helps me remember all the amazing things that just happened that day. So, just throwing that in there.

John SmallMtn (00:44:56)

I love the idea of just starting with one thing. By this point, I’ve been journaling for so long and I’ve been such a big advocate about it that I’m kind of a bad person to talk to about it, because I’m like, “Just start!” and stuff like that. But starting with just one thing is really interesting.

I love talking about this with people because in the beginning, you don’t realize progress a lot when you start developing a journaling habit. If you go to the gym for five days in a row, you’re going to be sore and you’re probably going to think you look a little bit better. After two weeks of journaling, you’re probably still trying to figure out how to get it out of your head and onto the paper.

I talk with a lot of people who get stuck in the early days of trying to build a journaling habit because they’re like, “Well, this doesn’t really seem to be helping.” It takes a while. The progress that we realize from journaling is slower than just about anything else. If you spend 10 hours in a month learning how to write code, you’re going to be better at writing code, and you’re going to be able to see it, feel it, and realize it. But with journaling, it’s like, “Okay, I’m just better at sitting down and jotting on this paper.” That has to be enough in the early days, because you’re still trying to figure out what it needs to be for you.

Michele Lambert (00:46:23)

Yeah, I agree. What you mentioned before about not putting pressure of perfectionism on it is super helpful, too. Journaling is personal to each of us in how it shows up and how we utilize it in the best way for our practice.

If you just do one positive of the day, it helps you remember your day, and it prompts you so you end up doing more. If you’re doing one thing of gratitude—and I’m not talking about just waking up and saying, “Oh, I’m thankful for my coffee today. Okay, moving on”—you have to really dig a little deeper to make the most of it, try to get creative with it, and be a little more intentional.

The other thing that is super helpful, I think, is the brain dump. Especially when my mind is racing—we are in a busy world, and there’s a lot going on—just brain-dump it all. Unless you feel like going to a therapist every damn day and explaining everything going on in your mind, if you just once in a while put it on paper, you’ll realize those thoughts—instead of repeating for days and days and constantly popping up—are actually disappearing, getting resolved, or you’re feeling confident in your decisions. So it’s a big confidence builder in general.

John SmallMtn (00:47:46)

I love that idea of: don’t just write down that you’re thankful for the coffee. Years ago, in my journaling practice, I decided I was going to work on gratitude. I decided to work on: who do I appreciate in my circle? I was networking a lot, making a lot of introductions, and trying to figure out how I was going to navigate this world. I started writing down three people every day that I’m thankful to have in my network and to know.

Then I started to realize that I kept picking the same people over and over again. So I was like, “Okay, let’s make this a little bit harder and hopefully a little bit better.” I’m a big fan of trapping myself into good behavior and putting stakes on things, so I had this epiphany: if I write the same person down twice in a month, I must appreciate this person so much that I need to pick up the phone immediately, call them, and say, “Hey, thank you so much for being in my life. I appreciate you so much,” and express this gratitude.

At the time, this put a lot of focus into: okay, who else can I appreciate? Who else can I be grateful for? Because it felt a little cheesy to pick up the phone, call some people I know, and be like, “Hey man, I just wanted to say thank you for being in my circle.” Eventually I normalized it, because I ran out of people and had to start making these phone calls.

Choosing to push myself instead of just listing the same people or saying, “Well, I woke up on this side of the grass, so we’re winning”—all of that stuff is helpful. But if you’re really trying to build reflective practices, we owe it to ourselves to really push ourselves. That trap was huge, because in the beginning it really put the fear into me. I was like, “Everyone’s going to think I’m so cheesy if I’m just calling everyone and saying, ‘Hey, I appreciate you.'” It really started to develop this gratitude muscle that’s been helpful in so many other ways.

I love the “don’t just say ‘I’m thankful for this coffee.'” I remember writing that in a very early entry because one of my other traps was that I was co-working in a coffee shop. I’d show up every morning and get a cup of coffee, and I wasn’t allowed to drink from that cup of coffee until I finished my journaling in the morning. That would lead to me being like, “I’m so excited to get through this so I can drink the coffee.” It’s hilarious to me that you said “don’t just be thankful for the coffee,” because I can remember writing that, just trying to find something to be happy for. But the more you build that muscle, the easier it is.

Michele Lambert (00:50:38)

I love that you call people and give them that gratitude. I know that was a push for you, but you can do it in voice notes, too, because people love hearing that. That’s good for supporting the people around you as well. It’s a good networking tool, even though that’s not the intention of it—it’s literally being grateful. That’s something that spreads positivity and supports others as much as it supports you.

Giving yourself a reward for doing it—maybe the reward can be drinking coffee while you’re doing it!

Last one on journaling: for gratitude especially, what I find most helpful when I wake up in a bad mood or something is really bothering me goes back to the lessons from failures. If I fail at something, I try to journal into what happened and ask: What’s the lesson or gratitude I can be thankful for? What is the result of this that I can be grateful for? What doors could it possibly open? What changes can I make from this? How can I optimize and learn from this? And what part of it am I grateful for? It’s a way to turn those lessons and failures into actual gratitude.

John SmallMtn (00:51:50)

Now it’s such a part of my process that anytime I’m feeling any kind of anxiety, I have a handwritten process of navigating through to figure out what is open in my head that’s causing this. As a business owner, I carry a lot of open loops—that’s how I refer to them. I’ve got clients, pipeline, and other things I’ve got to be doing.

At the end of the day, I try to make sure I can shut it down and just be present with my family. Sometimes that’s hard to do. Journaling is now my go-to thing. If I feel that pull when I’m supposed to be off work, I’ll grab my journal, take 15 minutes, and write through all of these things. I’ll just sit with it: “Is this coming from my pipeline? No. Okay. Do I owe something to a client? No. Okay.” Eventually I can find it.

It took a long time, because I used to do this thing where I’d think, “Well, this shouldn’t bother me,” and I would beat myself up. If you’re saying “should” to yourself, there’s a lot of room to not beat yourself up. Now I don’t “should” myself, and I don’t beat myself up for having anxiety whenever it hits me; I just sit down and try to find the source of it. It’s a signal that you might have too much on your plate. It’s not something you should close yourself off to or tell yourself shouldn’t bother you. That took me a very long time, but now it’s nice to have a process to work through anything that’s bothering me, as opposed to trying to talk myself out of it or other things that people do.

Michele Lambert (00:53:58)

It brings you presence, too, because it brings you out of that anxious mind into what’s actually present and gets those thoughts out so that you can be present. That’s the ultimate goal.

John SmallMtn (00:54:03)

100%. Realizing how much I was beating myself up in my own self-talk was huge. Journaling is probably the best way to see what I call “painting yourself into a corner.” If you’re beating yourself up asking, “Why does this always happen to me? Woe is me,” you’re hamstringing yourself. It makes it really hard to make any forward progress if you’re just beating yourself up.

I didn’t realize how much I was beating myself up over my failures, especially in sales. Because the role is so filled with rejection, I could find myself endlessly focusing on the noes. It’s important to go back over your noes, watch your tape, and find improvements, but if you’re solely focused on the noes, you’re wearing the rejection heavier than you need to.

Michele Lambert (00:54:59)

Mentally, it takes five or six yeses to override one negative or one no. It’s a pretty high ratio of positives to outweigh a negative. Especially in a space where rejection is a major thing—like marketing and sales—you’re going to get a lot more rejection, people not responding, or noes than yeses or people grateful for your work. You’re not always seeing the positive impact because once you’ve made the sale, you pass it on to delivery, so you might not actually see the impact you are making. Remind yourself of that.

On the marketing side of things, your noes are just as important as the yeses, because the noes are going to teach you: Is this your ideal client? Is this your ideal avatar? Do you need to create a new asset that supports your ideal avatar? Is there something else you can do to nurture the people who aren’t yet ready for your services? There’s so much value in a no, a failure, or a rejection that supports your marketing, sales, and how to talk to people. I’m sure you see that a lot on the sales side of things.

John SmallMtn (00:56:25)

One of the things I tell everybody is: don’t try to take sales advice from people who have never sat in the seat, because it always comes out as, “Well, screw them, they didn’t know what they wanted.” No, they knew what they wanted; it just wasn’t this. So it ends up being very unhelpful advice.

Talking a little bit more about that: you and I were talking about being online and the concept of a personal brand. You mentioned being authentic, and how that conveys not just from the content you make and how you show up on social media, but also in how you live and run your business. Where do you see people getting misaligned with that when it comes to making content, developing a personal brand, and being yourself online? Where do people get stuck?

Michele Lambert (00:57:21)

I think people get stuck when our ego chimes in—like, “You shouldn’t share that,” or “That’s too vulnerable.” We’re just trying to protect ourselves. That’s all the ego is trying to do; it’s not the devil, it’s just a protector.

When you get vulnerable and share from an authentic, real story, real self, and real experience, that’s when people can actually relate to you and your story. Throwing AI slop around is not going to do what you want it to do if you can’t also add authenticity to it and show up as yourself. That’s who people want to work with right now. Especially in a world where we have AI, connection is still super important, and people are looking to connect and work with people who they align with and feel like they can trust. They can’t trust you if you’re not being authentic and sharing the truth.

Now, I’m not saying go share every detail of a terrible experience with your baby daddy or baby mommy or whatever you’ve got going on in your life. It’s important to share pieces of your life where you are struggling in areas, and it’s also okay to share your wins. I suggest framing it with a lesson or something strategic, like: “This is how I got there,” or “This is what happened, this was the action I took, and this was the result.” That’s going to be a more valuable share with awesome authenticity than just throwing out whatever AI tells you to put out.

John SmallMtn (00:59:08)

I like that. Switching gears just a little bit, Michele, because I want to be respectful of your time: we’re going to move into the rapid-fire portion of this. As I say “rapid fire,” I’m not really expecting rapid responses; I like a deeper response on this.

When someone is going out on their own as a founder and starting to think about growing marketing specifically, what do they need to be thinking about so that they’re on the path to success? What would be your advice to someone starting out when it comes to their marketing or hiring their marketing team? What do they need to be thinking about?

Michele Lambert (00:59:54)

Is this somebody who’s already built to multiple six or seven figures looking to build the marketing team, or are they a fresh start?

John SmallMtn (01:00:04)

Fresh start. They’re going out and hanging their shingle. They’re fed up with working for someone else and want to go out on their own to do a thing, but they want to build something and have a shot at success. What do you think they need to be thinking about in the world of marketing or team building?

Michele Lambert (01:00:23)

First, start with your product and the outcome that you’re trying to deliver. On the marketing side, know the outcome you are delivering and focus on the ideal avatar who needs that outcome and who you’re able to support with your product. All marketing is outcome-driven, so you want to focus on that.

Depending on the approach, there are different marketing styles. You can use emotional tactics to pull people in, and that’s where the authenticity side comes in: telling your story, sharing examples, sharing what has and hasn’t worked for you, and authentically being yourself to pull customers toward you.

There are so many ways you can approach it. The most important thing—especially for service providers—is to start by sharing examples, like a win you got and how you got it for someone. That is going to help spread awareness of the product and the outcome you deliver a lot faster, and it helps build reputation, authenticity, and your avatar connection.

Starting from scratch in marketing, you need your ideal avatar, the outcome you’re delivering, and then to figure out the best way to speak to that ideal avatar regarding that outcome.

If you’re looking at building a team, depending on where you are and what kind of product you have, you can start with agencies or fractional individuals hiring per piece. If you’re really a startup, I recommend starting with strategy on your end unless you are really not that person. In that case, you probably should partner with somebody who’s a marketing strategist. This is not just hiring someone; it’s more of a partner, because they have to get deep into it and you probably don’t have the capital to pay the kind of person you need to lead the marketing department. That’s always an option, and they can help make sure you have the right team in place.

John SmallMtn (01:02:33)

Epic. I love that.

How does someone know if they need that marketing co-founder versus going down the path of figuring out marketing themselves? Is there a signal you look for or an assessment that is helpful? Because it’s a deeper well than people think it is. How should someone figure out if it’s something they should be upskilling themselves on and trying to do themselves, or if they should go find a marketing co-founder?

Michele Lambert (01:03:20)

I think that’s dependent on your personality. If you are such an operator or product developer that you’re really into this one thing and marketing makes you cringe, you hate it, and you suck at it, it’s probably a good idea to consider partnering with someone.

If you feel like you’re figuring out marketing enough and understand how to sell and share what your product does and the outcome you are helping people with, then working on figuring out more of the marketing yourself is better than cutting part of your equity with somebody.

That being said, if you’re not making progress with your marketing, then you probably should reconsider your other options. Marketers invest a lot of money and time into being experts in their fields—it’s not just, “Oh yeah, I know how to do this one thing.” You invest in training, split testing, learning psychology, sociology, and going deep into data. There’s a lot behind actual marketing that isn’t just, “Okay, I’m going to write this sales page and put out a couple emails.”

John SmallMtn (01:04:42)

Yep.

Michele Lambert (01:04:43)

It really comes down to what you love to do and how much you are willing to give away in equity or your time and energy. If those efforts aren’t working, are you willing to consider a high financial payment to someone or an equity partnership?

John SmallMtn (01:05:01)

Okay, cool. I appreciate the clarity on that. I think a lot of people get caught up in the best practices of others and the unicorns we read about online.

I was at an event one time talking with a guy who was standing by himself. One of my tricks to networking as an introvert is to go find the other introverts who are wallflowers and ask them who they want to meet. I asked him, “Hey, who are you here to meet?” And he said, “I’m here to try to find a co-founder.” I said, “Wait, you don’t sound very excited about this concept of getting a co-founder.” And he goes, “Well, I don’t really want one, but my investor is saying that I have to have one or else he’s not going to invest.”

That really bothered me. I know sales is a hard job and not everyone is cut out for it, but I want everyone who wants to try to have a fair shot at figuring it out. If it’s not for you, then it’s not for you. Both paths have value. I appreciate that distinction: if you hate it, it’s probably not the right thing for you. But on the other side of it, don’t tell yourself you’re great at it if you’re not—you should have feedback loops and metrics that aren’t just vanity metrics, leading you toward the success you’re looking for.

Next question, Michele.

Michele Lambert (01:06:23)

Also, if you’re talking to an investor and they can add extra finances to cover what you need, that’s one thing. But I will add that partnering with the right people—the right operator and marketer partnering together—can be super successful and help people gain traction super fast.

John SmallMtn (01:06:49)

That’s cool. I’ve heard more horror stories than serendipitous stories about finding the right partner at the right time, so it’s nice to hear that there are positive outcomes.

Michele Lambert (01:07:04)

Yeah, it’s like a marriage. You really have to vet them.

John SmallMtn (01:07:07)

That’s fair, absolutely.

Next question: we talked a lot about being online, and you work with a lot of internet-driven businesses. What is the tweet, Facebook post, or business mantra that you appreciate now, but had to learn the hard way before you could appreciate it in the form of a tweet?

Michele Lambert (01:07:27)

I think it’s going to be shiny ball syndrome and not trying to do everything at once. I have been known in the past for trying to do three or four main projects or businesses at once. It’s hard to be fully into one and get things done for it when you have so many going.

If you can get your foundational business running and operating solidly, with the right team in place to free up your time so everything is covered and you’re scaling at that level, then you have time to invest in other projects. That’s probably the better solution. But make sure you go back and re-evaluate all the projects you have going: what is adding to the bottom line, what is hindering it, and so on.

John SmallMtn (01:08:20)

I’ve done the same thing. I opened another business because I thought, “Oh, well, I’m smart, I’ve figured this out enough, let’s dilute our focus.” I tried to launch something else, and it did not go very well.

Since then, I keep a notepad on my phone for business ideas as a place to get them out of my head. I don’t actually think I’m going to launch the majority of these businesses, but it’s nice to put them away in a place. Periodically someone will say, “Oh, I want a business idea,” and I’m like, “Here, you can have any one of these, because I think these are cool ideas, but I don’t have the time or focus to do them. I need my focus for this thing over here.”

That’s super helpful, because before having the habit of writing it down so it could be contained and out of my head, I would just keep thinking about it. That’s largely what led to me trying to launch something else while still trying to figure this thing out—it went wrong because I didn’t have a process for getting it out of my head.

Michele Lambert (01:09:26)

That’s super helpful. Another thing I add to that—which helps with improving your current business—is quarterly planning. I do an annual ideal big picture with what’s happening per month: once this project is wrapping up, this project is initiated. Then I re-evaluate every quarter.

If I have a great idea for a new project that has nothing to do with my main business, I say: “Okay, let’s get these things for my main business in order in the next one or two quarters, and then start looking at that project.” Then you know it’s going to happen if you’re crazy excited about it, but you’re not avoiding the things you actually need to get done to grow what you do have.

John SmallMtn (01:10:13)

I love that a lot, because to me that sounds very similar to the idea of, “I’m not going to drink the coffee until my journaling is done.” I’m trapping myself in good behavior. It’s okay to have ideas, but ultimately, if you’re running a business, the business has to run. If you’re the person running it, earn that side hustle or experiment you want to go run by setting goals and making sure you’re moving the important things forward. That would have saved me a lot of heartache.

Michele Lambert (01:10:45)

And some ideas are actually meant for other people, too. So be free with your ideas—that’s something I run by.

John SmallMtn (01:10:53)

Oh, absolutely. There are a bajillion ideas. It takes a lot of work, effort, and focus to get an idea out of the idea state and into early modes of production. So be very open with ideas—they are literally a dime a dozen.

Last question, Michele: when you think about your time in the space and everything you’ve been through, having seen shifts happen over your time as a founder, what is your word of warning to someone going out today, independent of what kind of business they’re going to run?

Michele Lambert (01:11:29)

Don’t give up. Don’t just say, “I failed at this one thing, let’s try again.” We’ve all tried a million things. It goes back to learning that lesson and perseverance—really pushing through and figuring out how to make it happen. If you really want something bad enough, you won’t give up, and you’ll find a way to make it work.

John SmallMtn (01:11:55)

Epic. I love that.

So much of this is just stringing the lessons through, because you’re going to have a lot of failures. I used to be hamstrung by the idea of failing—like if I fail, I’m going to be an idiot, and all this super negative self-talk around failure that kept me from even trying anything. Having to reframe all that through working with coaches, journaling, and everything else… Now I have a healthy appreciation that it’s not going to work on the first stroke, and I’m probably going to have to figure it out. I go into it primed for that, primed to learn the lessons that show up.

Michele, if people want to learn more about you or hang out with you online and follow your path, where is the best place for them to keep up with you?

Michele Lambert (01:12:54)

We have the website, bellaconnections.com. I’m also on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn—it’s Michele with one ‘L’ (M-I-C-H-E-L-E) Lambert. Bella Connections is the business, so any of those places you’ll find us. We also have a podcast, The Aligned Operator. I’ll send you those links so you have them, as well.

John SmallMtn (01:13:18)

Perfect. All right, Michele, thank you so much for coming on and doing this. I love being able to talk about hiring and sourcing, because it is one of those things that a lot of people struggle with. I really appreciate your journey of not thinking that this was the lane you were going to end up in, but finding your place in it and evolving it over time. A lot of people will get a lot of value from this. I really appreciate your time.

Michele Lambert (01:13:42)

I appreciate you. This was a lot of fun, so thank you so much for having me today.

John SmallMtn (01:13:47)

You’re more than welcome. I’ll talk to you very soon. I hope you enjoy the rest of your day. Cheers.

Michele Lambert (01:13:50)

Thanks, you too.