John SmallMtn (00:50)

Welcome to another episode of Founders Growth. My name is John Hill, AKA Small Mountain. I’m the founder of Adapted Growth. And today on the show, we have a very cool guest. We have Morgan J. Ingram. He is the founder of AMP Social and someone I’ve been following on LinkedIn for a very long time. So I’m excited to have him on. Morgan, can you talk a little bit more about the work that AMP does and who you support and work with?

Morgan J Ingram (01:11)

Yeah, so the problem that we’re solving right now is that everyone is over-indexing on AI, yet not focusing on the skills development of their sales reps. So our main mission and our whole entire goal is to make sales more human in an AI world while still obviously using AI. We help organizations with their conversational skills, social selling, video selling, cold calling, and in-person relationships so they’re able to build more quality pipeline and close more deals. We have our program, it’s called Sales Team Six, that we do that in with cohorts within the organization. So that’s our main focus.

John SmallMtn (01:37)

Mm-hmm. Very cool.

The whole AI thing—everyone is running, screaming towards it with their hair caught on fire. If you’ve been in sales for a while, you see all the warning signs, right? But it’s one of those things that becomes very shiny to people that don’t come from sales and marketing, and they think they can automate the whole thing, right? When you’re working with a team and they’re too excited about AI, how do you get them to come out of that loop and to kind of go back to appreciating the craft of conversations and making connections?

Morgan J Ingram (02:23)

I start asking them questions to understand why are they so bullish. John, you’ll laugh at this. And this is not to make fun of anyone, this is just the conversations that I have. I was talking to a sales leader, and they’re like, “We want all of our SDRs to spend an hour a day in AI.” I was like, “Cool. So what’s the result of that?” They’re like, “So our team can be more productive.”

John SmallMtn (02:52)

Sure.

Morgan J Ingram (02:57)

I’m like, “Okay, how are you tracking if they’re being more productive?” No answer—crickets. And I was like, “Okay, so we’ve got to figure that out.” And then I was like, “Okay, so let’s say they are more productive and they have more time. What are you going to do?” Crickets—they didn’t have an answer on that.

So I was like, this is the problem that I’m seeing with most leaders: we want to do this AI stuff, we want to do these things, yet we don’t know how to track the productivity. We don’t know what we will do if our reps actually had more time. So I get them to ask those questions, and then they realize, “Well, we just want our team to be more efficient and productive.” And I’m like, “Well, let’s start with leveling up their skills first and get them to understand how to connect the dots, build business acumen, and talk to humans.” Because if they can’t do that, then using the AI makes no sense. So that’s the work that I’m focusing on with people. Yeah, you could say it’s pipeline-generating—sure—but it really is on how do we have conversations with people and not overlook that.

John SmallMtn (04:03)

100%. Yeah, there was someone who was on the show recently and they were talking about how trust is at an all-time low, right? And I get a ton of outreach, and most of it is really, really, really rough, right? You can tell that it’s AI-driven. You can tell that it’s scraped, and it’s not any good. We take the same approach of like: you need to be a human, you’ve got to show up as a human. If you want to get treated as a human first, you need to act like a human first—not like a salesperson, not just like someone who’s trying to build some pipe and slam some deals and everything.

Changing gears just a little bit, I’m excited to talk to you about your path as a founder. How long have you been running AMP?

Morgan J Ingram (04:36)

It’s been three years now.

John SmallMtn (04:38)

Three years now, okay. I would love to talk to you about what it started out as, because we were talking before we turned on the recording—it wasn’t the work that you were doing now. I think that being able to pivot is one of the most important things that a founder needs to stay aware of. What did you envision the business as when you started?

Morgan J Ingram (05:01)

Yeah, so to be real with it—and also to give a little bit of context for people—from 2017, 2018 till the beginning of 2023, I was doing in-person workshops with a company called JB Sales. Mainly, I was doing SDR and AE training for top of funnel. I was on flights all the time. I went to all different countries. That’s not to flex on anyone, I’m just telling you the level of travel and the level of work, because I was essentially a full sales cycle rep while also delivering these workshops, doing webinars, and still posting content on LinkedIn. So I was just doing a lot.

I’ll be honest, at the end of 2022, beginning of 2023, I was like, “I never want to do a sales training ever again.” I was cooked, man. Again, people know me for that, but I’m going to be real with people: I didn’t want to give any advice on sales. I was just so cooked. You know, I was doing like 60, 70 trainings a year, so I was just exhausted. I felt like I didn’t have anything left to give, and I felt disingenuous to do that.

So when I started the company, it literally came from just praying one day and God was like, “You should call it AMP.” I was like, “Cool.” So that’s what I called it. And then I just felt in the moment, “I’m not going to do any sales training or sales coaching.” So I stopped it completely. My goal actually was to be a full-time influencer. I was like, “I’m not going to do any coaching or training. If you want me to come talk, that’s cool.” I just was like, how can I get brands to pay me X amount? I just wanted to create content—that’s the only thing I cared about.

I think it’s really important—and I’m curious, John, from the other guests you’ve had on—to not beat yourself up in the moment about decisions you make, because it’s based on the data and the information you had at the time. At that moment, at that time, it was the best decision for me. So yeah, it started out as me doing brand deals and influencer-led shows—like webinars, but they were more like shows with more to it—because at the time, a lot of people wanted to start doing shows and getting into more virtual events again. So that was what I was doing.

John SmallMtn (07:29)

Yeah, I like what you said about not beating yourself up, because ultimately it’s not super helpful, right? You’ve made the decision, you committed to the action. Now, I think the mark of success—and one of the things that people struggle with—is being able to read the leaves, see the signs, and read between the lines.

There was a guy named Dan who came on the show, and we were talking about how he’s in the content space. He helps people with video editing and everything. One of the things he talked about was how he was just so resistant to the things that people were asking him for. They wanted editing, and he didn’t really want to be an editor. You’re allowed to go off and make whatever decisions you want and try to launch whatever you want, but if you’re getting feedback from people like, “Man, this is cool, but you know what I would really love?”—that is very valuable information. We can become a little too dogged, right? A little too like, “Well, I’m not doing that anymore. I’m not a sales trainer anymore; I’m doing this thing over here.” But if everyone is asking you for the thing, at some point we should take the note, as opposed to just thinking, “You’re not smart enough, you don’t get it; I know what I’m doing over here.” Eventually we need to realize there’s some signal here.

So were you getting… Sorry.

Morgan J Ingram (08:49)

Yeah, I mean I resonate with that because I was just fighting it. In that moment, I was like, “I don’t know how I can go down this path.” But I also did not take the time to reframe it or take a step back to look at it differently. What I do today, how I do it today—you can still say it’s training, but it’s different than how I did it in the past. I fully love what I do now, but I had to reframe it so it made sense for me. So it’s that, but I understand the editing guy. I get that. I’ve been like, “I don’t want to do the things that people are asking me to do.”

John SmallMtn (09:23)

Yeah, being burnt out is a very real thing. This episode isn’t out yet, but one of the upcoming guests is a burnout coach. One of the things we talked about is: what’s the difference between being burnt out and just going through a season of challenge? Like putting yourself out there in a meaningful way—if you’re doing hard work, taxing yourself, and really pushing yourself, you should be tired. But that’s different than just being completely burnt out. We had a very cool conversation about the differences there.

What happens is a lot of people start thinking, “Well, if I get the promotion or if I get the new job or whatever, it’s all going to change.” It’s probably not going to change. We have to go through that process of reframing it for ourselves. If you want to go down the Simon Sinek path of Start with Why—why is this stuff important to you? If it’s just for money, you’re probably not going to make it. You’ve got to have some other connection point to it.

How long into the journey were you when you realized that you were going in the wrong direction and it made sense to pivot back in more of a sales training direction?

Morgan J Ingram (10:43)

I would say it was about a year and a half—probably 14 to 18 months.

John SmallMtn (10:43)

A year and a half, okay. Now, because I did a version of this as well when I started my business, I was just trying to go find the things that I wanted to do. It was CRM consulting, I was writing on LinkedIn, doing just whatever I thought people would be excited to pay me for and things that I could do a good job of.

Then I read this book called The E-Myth. It talked about how a lot of people build a business that’s not scalable because they built it around things that they’re really great at. I had this moment where I read this book and I was like, “My God, I’m setting a trap for myself. I’ve got to get out of this thing.” So I had four or five clients that were paying me to go network for them and write content for them, and I had this realization: “Okay, no one’s going to allow me to bring someone else on to do this work, and I want to build a scalable company, so I’m going to go fire these clients.”

I wasn’t really at a revenue level where I should have been ripping out retainers and shutting down business, but it felt important to me that I make this change. I got lucky in the fact that I was able to find new business to replace the business I was exiting out of. But I’m curious: was your realization as stark as mine, or was it more gradual?

Morgan J Ingram (11:58)

It wasn’t as aggressive as that, but I still had that thought process. I remember John Barrows, who I worked with, gave me the book The E-Myth. I read it as well and had that same thought: “I don’t want to be trapped.”

Then I was like, “Okay, if I’m just the influencer, am I just going to be trapped forever creating content for the rest of time, working with brands, and beholden to an algorithm that I don’t understand?” That didn’t sit well with me at all.

So yeah, I think about eight months into doing my own work, I brought in a director of operations, essentially. I was like, “How do we do things that don’t involve me?” That led to a year and a half of trying to figure that out, which led to confusing messaging and brand mistiness, because obviously I’m known for a thing, but I was like, “I don’t want to talk about the thing I’m known for anymore; I want to go in a different direction.” I was trying to figure out two things: how do I scale, and how do I not always be the center of attention?

I’ve come to grips with what that is now, but back then I was trying to figure out how to create a model where it’s not always on me, I don’t have to be on a plane, and I can actually be at home if I want to. I was really trying to figure that out. So I was like, if it takes me a year and a half and I lose X amount of money, I just want to see if this is possible, because I just don’t want to be stuck.

John SmallMtn (13:25)

Yeah, man. I’ve talked to a lot of people that have accidentally found a lane of traction, and for every one of them that is really happy, I talk with a lot of people who feel trapped. They’re part of this machine and it doesn’t really fulfill them, but they feel like they can’t step away from it at all, which terrifies me. I’m not doing this for anything like that; I want to have freedom, and I also want to pour into other people.

When you were starting the business—coming from sales, we get used to being in motion and moving things forward. You’ve got to have a healthy amount of optimism, or else you won’t ever find any success in the role. What was the biggest thing you had to change your mind on?

Morgan J Ingram (14:26)

In terms of how I sold, or just in general?

John SmallMtn (14:30)

Ooh, great question. I would love answers on both of them, but let’s start on the big one. From a business perspective, what have you had to adapt or change your thinking on to get to where you are now?

Morgan J Ingram (14:45)

I had to stop thinking like a creator or a seller, and think like a business owner.

John SmallMtn (14:57)

Deep. Okay.

Morgan J Ingram (14:59)

Probably the first year and a half, even two years, I don’t think I did a good job of that, if I’m being super honest with myself.

John SmallMtn (15:06)

What does the “bad job” look like? I can appreciate what you’re saying, and I appreciate you being open and honest about it, but a lot of people might nod and agree without really knowing granularly what that looks like.

Morgan J Ingram (15:19)

Yeah, let’s contextualize it. As a salesperson, you have a goal to hit. You’re going to do activities, you’re going to close the deal, you’re going to do everything you can. But that’s all you’re asked to do. In the most simple terms, you have a number and you need to go hit it by any means necessary, ethically. I can do that.

The problem is, now I’m in charge of managing those resources and making sure we don’t run out of them, right? Making sure every decision actually makes sense. Am I bringing on the right people? Am I coaching these people?

When I was just in a motion of selling and creating content, that was a very simple motion in my eyes: I create this thing, I get this output, and I continue to elevate. But when I started bringing in people and thinking about vision, everything was in my head. In working with my coaches—and I’ve gotten better at this—they were like, “Morgan, everything is in your head. It makes sense to you, but if I asked your team, they wouldn’t know because you’re not sharing what’s in your head.”

I would get upset with people: “Why don’t you get it?” And it’s like, well, I never told you! I was getting mad, and then I realized, yeah, it’s because everything is in my head. This is my doing, this is my fault, and I need to take accountability.

What I mean by that is, as a salesperson or a creator, you don’t really have to tell people what you’re doing—it’s about results. I don’t have to tell you how I create content or how I do sales if I don’t want to. But as a business owner, if I’m bringing people in, I have an obligation to tell you what we’re doing. You’re putting your life on the line, and I’m paying you money for your livelihood—you need to know what’s going on, and I shouldn’t expect you to read my mind.

That’s the shift I had to make in year one and a half to two years, because I personally never had to do that except when I had my SDR team years ago. I had been conditioned on traveling and running around for four or five years. So now, I’ve set more of an intention to keep everybody I work with in the loop: “This is what we’re doing, this is what I’m thinking,” just so they know where I’m at head-wise. That has paid massive dividends.

John SmallMtn (18:07)

I love this. I’m having an interesting moment realizing how far-ranging and independent a sales role often is. We get used to saying, “Get out of my way, I’ve got to go hit these numbers.” It can create a lone wolf mentality that doesn’t serve you. But I love how you’re holding yourself accountable to that team leadership now.

How does Morgan work on that now with his team? Do you have any special tricks, tips, or frameworks you’ve worked on to share that knowledge so you don’t become a black box?

Morgan J Ingram (19:05)

100%. Every day of my week has a purpose. If you travel or aren’t able to do this, I understand—I’m just sharing what’s worked for me, and you can adjust accordingly.

They are essentially called the 5 Ps. I didn’t make this up—I saw it on X, took someone’s framework, and made it my own:

• Monday is People: I talk to contractors and people I work with directly. I spend an hour with my Director of Operations to go over finances and operations. He’s the voice of reason because I can be an overthinker, so he keeps me grounded. I also meet with my fractional brand design guy and my VA.
• Tuesday is Profit: That’s selling day.
• Wednesday is Process.
• Thursday is Pipeline: Going over the pipeline and where deals are at.
• Friday is Promotion: Creating content, etc.

Then on Friday afternoon, I have something called Review and Preview. I review the week and tell the team where my head is at for the upcoming week.

John SmallMtn (20:35)

Man, I love that.

I’m very routine-driven, though I split my time a little differently. In the mornings is where I do all my deep work—writing, checking in with my team, and working with my wife (who is on my team). I don’t take any calls before 11:00 AM, which is weird for a lot of people in our space. But I can’t mode-switch very effectively; once I start talking to and helping people, I can’t go back to focusing on my own stuff. So splitting my day like that works amazingly well.

Do you find it a struggle to stay focused on those designated days—just focusing on that one thing? Because you have high energy, and I imagine you’re someone who likes to move quickly and get a lot done. Is it hard for you to cultivate that focus for a full day?

Morgan J Ingram (21:29)

Yeah, it is hard, for sure. So, it’s a good question. I still have deep work sessions. I try to do the same thing as you and not have meetings before 11:00 AM, yet it is difficult if I’m working with someone internationally. There’s just no way I can get around it. So that’s just a part of it, but for the most part, I try to do that. I try to set an intention of: if I can get two to four hours of deep work every day, I’m in a fantastic spot, right? So that’s what I try to aim for. Either that’s early in the morning or later in the evening.

I just know I like having themes of the day to know what I’m doing. On Tuesday, I know I’m going to have sales calls, so my brain is ready for that. On Monday, I know I’m meeting typically with my coaches—in person with my coach—or someone on my team, so I’m mentally prepared for that.

On Monday, I had two coaching sessions, to be honest with you, and I got put through the wringer by both of them—and they don’t even know each other! I was like, “Oh my gosh.” I’m thankful I did this in one day, because I don’t think I could have done it if it was two separate coaching sessions on separate days; I would have been out of it. I needed that day to literally reflect and be like, “Well, that was a lot.” It was great information, and I was able to absorb it, but it made this week better. I don’t think it would have worked if I had those conversations on Monday and then Wednesday; it just would have been too much for me. So yeah, I have time blocks around that to exert the energy.

I’ll add this as well: if you are like me and you’re listening in as a creative founder—a creator founder or creative CEO basically means someone who is a content creator and also creates content—I sometimes just want to create content all the time. That also is a mistake, because it can lead to me not doing revenue-generating activities, to be honest. I just love creating content, but to what end? That’s why I only genuinely sit down and do deep work content on Friday. I still put my thoughts out through the week in my notes, but I don’t spend time trying to create, because I find that I will find an excuse to create more than anything else.

John SmallMtn (23:57)

I love that, man. A big thing for me was doing some assessment training around my personality and the things that I’m naturally tuned to go do versus the things that I need to go do to keep this whole thing moving forward.

I found this through sales coaching, honestly, that got me clear on all these things, because I was very stuck for a very long time. I was always a middle-of-the-pack producer, and I kind of liked to hide in the middle because I didn’t really want to work that hard at a sales job. It wasn’t that I was opposed to working hard; I was just waiting for someone to come along and give me a job that I thought was worth that focus. Things got better when I started bringing that focus to the job that I was in.

That awareness of knowing that it’s super easy for you to get lost in doing content, right? It’s super easy for me to get lost writing, and then I’m not doing revenue-generating activities, I’m not building pipeline, and I’m not doing these things.

Do you set goals and KPIs around the things that you’re not as excited to do? One of the things that I talk about with people is that you don’t need to set goals for things that you love to do, or are going to do automatically, or feel drawn to do. You need to set goals and KPIs around the things you’re going to struggle with. What does that look like for you?

Morgan J Ingram (25:21)

Prospecting and working out are the same for me, and I’ll explain it. I hate the process of going to the gym. I’ve got to get these shoes, I’ve got to find these keys, I’ve got to go to the gym—it just sounds awful. But once I’m in the gym, I’m actually great. I get to my first set and I’m like, “I’m here. I’m so glad I went.” Afterwards, I feel so much better.

I’m the same way about prospecting, because it’s the process of going about it—the part where it’s like, “Okay, now I’ve got to go figure out what accounts I’m going after, what’s the research,” etc. I’ve got to do that due diligence. But once I start sending DMs and I’m in motion, I’m great.

So that’s what I’ve had to work on, if I’m being transparent: I just need to get in it. What I’ve started to do is DM people that have engaged with or liked my post first to get me started. Once I’ve sent a couple of DMs, I’m ready. I find that if I try to do straight cold outreach in the beginning—and this is crazy coming from me—I need to kind of rev up. It’s like a warm-up set. Even though I’ve been doing this for a while, I need to warm up real quick. So I’ll reach out to some people that have viewed my profile or checked out my posts, and then I’m ready full tilt. I could be there for two hours a day or three hours a day, but I have to get the engines to start revving.

That’s my routine. I know if I send out 20 to 50 DMs a day—I’m not saying I do that every day, but if I do that for 30 days—I’m in a good spot because it’s going to set me up. My problem has always been accepting invitations to travel and things that I don’t really need to be at. We can go into that. I think that actually traps a lot of founders. I have a really hot take on this one right now.

John SmallMtn (27:47)

Well, I think everybody has the opportunity to build a wall and not focus on the things they need to be focused on—whether that’s outreach, hiring, or documenting all the stuff in their head so someone else can come along and do it—and just run with their hair on fire towards the things that they are excited about.

Before sales coaching and sales training, I was very much in the mode of, “You know what, I’ll do it when I’m ready,” endlessly procrastinating on it. My coach was always focused on the idea that if you wait until you’re motivated, you’re never going to get there. So just do it, and then appreciate the fact that it’s done. The chores are done; you can now go on and do something else.

Much like you, I try not to let my feelings get in the way of my prospecting until I’m done with it, and then I can look at the messaging I sent, the DMs I created, and the calls that I’ve made, choosing to appreciate a job well done. That’s a huge mindset shift, because I’m sure you hear the same things: “Well, I’m going to do it when I feel like it.” When does that show up? When do you feel like it?

Morgan J Ingram (28:57)

You never will. It just won’t occur.

John SmallMtn (29:01)

Never will. Absolutely not.

Changing gears a little bit, we were talking before we hit record about getting lost chasing trends and shiny things. Can you talk a little bit more about how that has shown up for you in your business?

Morgan J Ingram (29:14)

Yeah, so I am a person that likes to go where the puck is going, not where it’s at. I’ve always looked at my career like: how can I be ahead? How can I be innovative? How can I be Nostradamus, right?

The reason for that—you could say there’s a level of ego, sure—is because I’ve seen it work in the past. When I started out as an SDR 10 years ago, I was creating content on LinkedIn, which was unheard of at the time and accelerated my career path. So my whole mindset has always been: how can I stay ahead? Right or wrong—we can have a debate on that—that’s just where my head is at.

When I was doing influencer marketing, I was getting brand deals before people were really getting brand deals on LinkedIn, so I was ahead on the edge. But then I started seeing a lot of people saying, “Now is the time where we need to have our executives create content on LinkedIn.” It was also during the time where LinkedIn was pushing video, and people were getting 500,000 views on videos. So I was like, “This is it.” I created content for 10 years, I’m good at video, and I have a proven track record. I can just help other executives make videos and content, be a producer, and not have to be the main act. This is how I can create a scalable business and exit.

Logically, that makes sense.

John SmallMtn (31:05)

On paper, that makes a ton of sense, right? You see a trend, let me get into it and try to help people out. I love this thing that I do—arguably too much. I get way too excited about it. If people I know super well want to call me on a Saturday, we can talk shop on a Saturday. I shouldn’t be doing these things, but I genuinely like what I do.

I think the advice to “do something you’re passionate about, do something you love” benefits some people, but it hurts a lot of people. I’m hearing this mode of, “Hey, there’s an opportunity here, we can drive some value,” but then it’s not such a passion project that it would be hard for you to pivot. Where did the friction show up for you? How did you start to realize that it wasn’t the best lane for you? Was it sudden, or did it accumulate over time?

Morgan J Ingram (32:04)

It accumulated over time. I’d say after six to eight months. I think you should give things at least six months unless it’s super obvious you need to pull out, because you need to give it a commitment of time to see if this is really the thing.

I gave it six to eight months, and a couple of things happened. Number one, I realized I didn’t have as much control as I wanted. Not to say I’m a control freak, but the control lever of success was not as high as I wanted it to be—it was like 40% in your control. If I create content for you, John, you can easily be like, “I don’t like this,” or you wake up one day and say, “I don’t even want to do this anymore.”

We worked with one client where we did a whole project for them: flew people out and shot all the videos. Then the CMO said, “We changed initiatives, so we need you to reshoot the entire thing.” At that point, I was like, “This is ridiculous. I don’t even want to do this anymore.”

If you’re really good at it, then shout out to the people who are really good at this, but you’re beholden to an algorithm, and it required so much of my time and obsessiveness that I personally didn’t want to do it anymore. I would rather have my obsession level in something else. Not to say that I wasn’t dedicated or committed—I was—but I just wasn’t committed to that at the end of the day.

The third thing is that it’s harder to track the results of content on the back end that people get, and I found that it wasn’t actually getting me excited. I realized that the team also wasn’t really excited about it, probably because subconsciously they realized I wasn’t that excited about it, if I’m being honest. So I think that was what was really going on.

No knock to anyone—there are people who do it now and it’s successful for them. But this is something important: the model of business that I was creating did not fit the model of the person that I am.

John SmallMtn (34:06)

Oh man, thank you for bringing this up, because I see people trying to build a business that does not line up with who they actually are. The most simple example is control freaks who don’t want to do client work, so they sell themselves on the fact that they should be a consultant. In actuality, since they have high standards and a high level of operation, running an agency would make a lot more sense—they just need to be better at client selection.

Someone said this line to me: if you’re just becoming a consultant, showing people the problem and the gap is one thing; but if your greatness is getting people past that thing, don’t try to become a consultant—just be an agency and do the work for them. But people take these ideas and run with them.

Now, I saw some of the content you were making, and you were getting massive props from people in our space for the content you were producing. Did you have a season of trying to separate the good from the bad? Was it difficult for you to move away from the people who were praising the work you were doing to move in a more meaningful direction?

Morgan J Ingram (35:42)

In working with my coach for the past year, one phrase that we discuss often is: “I’m exactly where I need to be at all times.”

I received that praise for the work that we did, yet it allowed us to take what people really loved and apply it to what needs to be done today, or maybe at a later point in the company. I received it as: wow, people love this content, and there’s nothing stopping us from doing that content now—we just have a different outcome than we did in the past.

I really received it like: I’m glad people love this content. I remember having a conversation in 2019—literally a couple of weeks before COVID happened—with Kevin Dorsey. I told him I always wanted to start a media content company and help people create content. He said, “You should just do it. Worst case scenario, it doesn’t work, but you learn a lot.” And that was what it was. I really wanted to do it, and I would have regretted it if I’d never tried and given it an effort. I did it, and it just wasn’t exactly what it needed to be for me in that moment. But I learned a lot. I received all the good that came out of it: I can produce really great content and people like it, so there’s got to be another way to do that. Now we’ve figured that out.

John SmallMtn (37:26)

When you’re going through the change and you find clarity that you’re not moving in an aligned direction, you make those changes. Did you feel any friction about making the change? Sometimes we get wrapped up in the identity of the business and who we’re putting ourselves out as. Did you struggle with being open to making this pivot, or was it a case of: you see the light, you move in that direction, and you don’t beat yourself up about it?

Morgan J Ingram (37:55)

Fortunately, I have a really good sense of when things are not going right and when to make the change. I struggle with my feelings about how that’s going to occur.

Let me explain that: I know I need to have a hard conversation, and I know that we’re not heading in the right direction, but I don’t like the feeling of being in the moment of having that conversation or having to actually make that change. I know it logically, but emotionally, I don’t want to feel that. So I might avoid it for a bit, which is not good, but I’ve worked on that.

In the moments when change had to occur, I didn’t like the feeling of—and this isn’t even true, because of the stories we tell ourselves—feeling like I’m a failure, like I don’t know what I’m doing, or like I’ve lost. None of those things are inherently true. You haven’t lost, because you’re still alive. You haven’t failed, because everyone fails and learns—it’s part of the game. People might say something, but it’s not that deep.

John SmallMtn (39:15)

Yeah, you’re still out here doing it. Exactly, right?

Especially with social media and content, it’s super easy to start putting ourselves up on a pedestal, making it way deeper and bigger than what it is. What are people going to think about me? Most people don’t really care; most people are stuck in their own bubble.

I faced that same stuff: what are people going to think about this change? Most people don’t care. I had to go through this right before my book came out. I was trying to figure out how to not let this blindside me or put me on a path that doesn’t make any sense. I started to realize: you’re going to launch this book, and no one is going to give a crap. You’re still going to have to go find people and put it in the hands of the people it’s meant for. This doesn’t change anything; you’re still going to have to get up and go to work the next day. Realizing that was so helpful.

John SmallMtn (40:16)

Right? Because I’m talking to other people that have written books, and they’re like, “My God, this is going to be great! People are reading it and giving me great feedback.” If I just bottle-fed myself on all this great feedback, I’m going to start thinking I’m like Tim Ferriss or Jeb Blount or one of these guys, you know, who can write a book and it changes everything. But I was very much like, “Okay, man, nothing changes. You’re still going to have to get up and do your outreach. You’re still going to have to get up and do these things.”

Morgan J Ingram (40:31)

Yeah.

John SmallMtn (40:42)

It was super helpful, because otherwise I would have put all this pressure on myself like, “My God, this is going to be a game-changer,” when it was a game-changer, but only through effort. It didn’t categorically change anything the day after, right? I just started using it in my outreach and sharing it with people, and it led to change. But it’s super easy to start thinking, “This one post is going to change everything.” Probably not, you know?

Morgan J Ingram (41:05)

Probably not. Probably not.

John SmallMtn (41:09)

When you think about your path as a founder—and aside from the pivot, because the pivot is a very cool moment in time in my opinion—what stage of growth has been the hardest for you?

Morgan J Ingram (41:24)

Accepting that I have flaws and sharing them.

John SmallMtn (41:28)

Wow, okay, yeah. What an answer, man. What does that mean?

Morgan J Ingram (41:35)

I’ve never been asked this question, but I always tell myself I’ll answer honestly. It’s because I have a part in me that always feels like I have to get it right.

John SmallMtn (41:45)

Same. Very much the same.

Morgan J Ingram (41:46)

And if I get it wrong, people won’t follow me and they won’t care. They’ll just go away. That’s a story that I tell myself that’s also not true, because we all make mistakes, right? You can’t always get it right; it’s literally impossible. If you aim to get it right, you’re probably going to play it too safe, and then that’s also detrimental to yourself.

So yeah, I have this thing: if I start this company, I have to get every single angle right; otherwise, I’m going to disappoint people and I’m going to disappoint myself. I’ve realized that once I started accepting my flaws and saying, “Here’s who I am, here’s a gift I have, and here’s where I’m not good at it—I suck,” and I started communicating that to my team and a little bit to my audience, a lot of things changed. People showed up completely differently than how they did in the past. They also felt more open to give me better feedback, to challenge me, and to be better supports as teammates, and even as clients or peers.

John SmallMtn (42:54)

Was it something you were aware that you weren’t doing, or was it more like you didn’t know the bridge went that far?

Morgan J Ingram (42:54)

I didn’t know the bridge went that far. I didn’t really know it until I started having more conversations about it and working with coaches on it. I was like, “Oh, this is a thing that I do pretty consistently that I just wasn’t aware of.”

John SmallMtn (43:08)

One of the things that I talk about with people is how hard it is to write as yourself on social media. It’s super easy to get behind the desk and look out on your lordly manor, overdoing it and stuff. It takes a lot of reps, a lot of revisions, and a lot of time to really just write as yourself—good, bad, or otherwise.

I think that point you’re talking about is frighteningly similar, right? I know a lot of people that are feeling this pressure to be perfect because they decided to go found a company. What happens is they just end up not being able to really connect with anybody—their team, their prospects, or investors if they’re trying to go that route. It all just comes down to putting a glass dome over yourself in the form of perfection that shuts down the ability to be authentic.

It takes a long time before you can even realize that you’re building that glass around yourself. No one asks us to do any of these things; this is all self-perceived “I want to be successful, so I’m going to do these things” modes.

How do you get better at this now? Do you journal? Is this work with coaches? How do you continue looking for your blind spots, gaps, and challenges so that you can communicate them with your team and your prospects?

Morgan J Ingram (44:30)

If I feel like I have something that is weighing on me, or if I feel like it’s getting pushed down—because that’s what I naturally do—I bring it up. If it’s somebody that I need to communicate something to, first of all I say, “Are you in a headspace just to hear me out? Because I’m going to talk about something that’s not going to be a normal conversation.” And then I just bring it up and say, “Hey, here’s something I’m feeling, here’s a concern I have,” and then talk it through.

What’s really important, though, as a founder with your team: this is not the excuse or the right to complain every day, because if you complain to your team all the time, they’re not going to respect you or follow you. I just bring up things that have been weighing on me for a while, where if I keep this going, at some point they are going to realize something’s wrong, and I might come off way worse than what I am right now. So what I focus on is: this thing is weighing on me, this thing is occurring, okay, I’m going to go talk to someone—a team member, a friend, whoever it is, right?

That, and working with coaches—that’s self-explanatory.

The third thing is I say a declaration of who I am at the beginning of every single morning. Then in the evening, I write down things that I’m committed to. Then every three to four months, I look at the calendar, write down all the things that I’m grateful for, and thank myself for taking action on things that I would not have done in the past.

John SmallMtn (46:24)

Yeah, man. That is something I’ve been trying to work on for—I think I’m in my second year of it, right? Because I’m just not really great at appreciating my own progress or appreciating the small things. As soon as I get done with something, I just want to move on to the next one, you know?

Morgan J Ingram (46:43)

Yeah, you’re like me! I’m psychotic. I’m like, “Yeah, cool, great, congratulations,” and I’m like, “Whatever, I don’t care, next thing.”

John SmallMtn (46:49)

This is how deep it runs: I decided that I was going to get into woodworking because I like having a big puzzle that takes up some space, right? So I decided I’m going to start figuring this stuff out. I don’t have any knowledge or experience in this space at all, but I’m starting to figure it out a little bit. I decided I’m going to make a bench—my version of a crappy birdhouse, okay? Because if you’re going to get good at anything, you can’t just read about it, which is my normal approach: research enough, and I’ll be good at it. That’s faulty. You have to go and do, you know?

So I make this bench, and I’m very excited, learning all this stuff. I bring it home, and as soon as I’m done with it, on the drive home, I’m already thinking about what I’m going to do differently on the next bench. So I bring it home. My wife is super excited and very supportive. Then my daughter comes home, and I was like, “Hey, do you want to see the bench?” She was very excited for me as well. I take her into the bathroom where the bench is living, and she has this moment: “My God, this is so good!” And then she’s like, “Wait a minute, hold on a second, hold on a second. You don’t like praise on things that you’ve done, so what are you going to do next time?” She’s 13 years old, man, right?

Morgan J Ingram (48:03)

She’s clocking you at 13! That’s crazy!

John SmallMtn (48:06)

I’m floored that, first of all, this element of my personality is so well known to people, and then my 13-year-old daughter is able to instantly pivot in the conversation. I was like, first of all, I need to work on myself a little bit, but also I’m kind of killing it as a parent over here that she’s this aware and able to pivot in a conversation like that.

It’s so wild, but that’s where I was like, “Okay, I need to work on this,” right? Because I’ve done some pretty cool things. If I don’t ever take any appreciation for the hard stuff that I do because I just fixate on “What’s my goal now? What’s my goal now?”, I get very fixated on just the next thing, you know?

So I love that reflection: doing a thing, looking back on what am I grateful for, and how is that impacting me. I do a thing in my note-taking every day where it’s like, “Okay, what did I do today that wasn’t on the task list?” Because I’ll take a random call, I’ll help someone else out, I’ll hop into the community and try to help some people. Since that’s not on the calendar and not in my note-taking system, it’s super easy to show up a little negative about it. Reflection is super, super important.

I love that you’re going through that process. It’s super easy for salespeople to get very fixated on the dopamine rush of the small wins that come. But being a founder—and I talk about this with people—sales is about short-term focus: the day, the week, the month, and the quarter. Whereas being a founder, you’ve got to be able to disconnect from that short-term view and think about the years, the decades, and the exit if that’s the path that you’re on. It’s a very different mode.

Morgan J Ingram (49:48)

It is a different mode, and you have to understand what those modes are and what season of the mode you’re in.

John SmallMtn (49:58)

Yeah, man. You probably run into this as well: all these people that are trying to build 5,000-a-day cold email engines when they’ve not even had a closed deal at all, right? They just want to automate the whole thing from the jump and then hide in their tower and not talk to anybody.

Morgan J Ingram (50:15)

It’s getting wild. I genuinely just don’t like it. I’m not coming from a place of “Morgan’s being a grandpa about it.” No, we’re trying to create shortcuts where we’re not focusing on the fundamentals to even acquire or access the shortcut. That’s my whole thing.

John SmallMtn (50:48)

Yeah. I had this conversation with myself probably six months ago: am I gatekeeping, or are we just moving in a bad direction? Because when you’re really into something—like, I love discovery conversations. I love diving deep with people and seeing if this is what you need, if there’s a use case, if there’s ROI. I love all that stuff, and I don’t think that AI is really at the place where that’s going to be done yet. But I also can acknowledge that I love this stuff, so it’s super easy for me to think the gap is bigger than what it actually is.

How do you stay open to changes and progress in this field that we’re in, while staying very focused on the things that need to be human-driven?

Morgan J Ingram (51:32)

What I tell SDRs especially—and I think for most people—is you just need to know enough to be dangerous. That’s how I look at AI. I don’t have a desire to be in the 0.001% of AI, because it would require me to never go to sleep. There are too many updates and too many things happening for me to even do that, so I’m not going to do that. But can I be like 10% to 20%? Yeah, probably, because most people just won’t spend enough time to ever acquire that.

So I know enough and understand the LLMs to give advice, especially for salespeople, because most people don’t know where to go. But what I know is most important is going to be the human connection, because everyone is so focused on the AI stuff. Everyone is so focused on building a CloudBot, Cloud 360, “Claude do a jumping jack and get 50 meetings.” I just don’t think all that is going to solve our problems. I think what’s really going to solve the problems is how you connect with people and the connection that they feel.

I’d rather spend more time on the work that I do with my coach to continuously connect with myself. I’d rather spend my time on the psychology of people and human nature than spending all my time on AI and becoming a robot in the process—at home, just doing stuff all the time with AI. That doesn’t sound like a very exciting life to me at all. Maybe that is for some people if they make a lot of money doing that; it’s just not me. I just don’t care.

John SmallMtn (53:12)

What it comes back to for me is that everyone trying to automate connection is missing the main point. It doesn’t make any sense to try to do discovery when they’re still holding a commodity mindset, or when they don’t trust you. Your discovery is going to be shallow, your follow-up is going to be garbage, and you’re not going to get a deal done.

Pushing more so that we can have more walls-up conversations isn’t really going to change anything. But to me, what it comes down to is that people don’t appreciate the ability to connect with cold traffic and people who don’t know you yet. In my opinion, that’s one of the bigger aspects of being in sales: if you can’t get a connection with people, you’re not going to make it. I don’t care how much outbound you can do.

Morgan J Ingram (54:02)

No, and that’s the thing. What people are missing—to your point—is sure, people claim that they’re booking 400 meetings a month, which is funny because I know if I was booking 400 meetings a month, I wouldn’t be online. I wouldn’t be talking to anyone besides the people I’m meeting with! So when I see that, logically, I don’t know how people fall into these traps.

What I will say is that inevitably, even if you use AI, even though leaders are replacing their teams with AI, I just don’t think that people are ready to actually buy from an AI person or an AI thing. I don’t think we’re ready for that yet, so that leads back to the level of connection. If you’re selling a deal that’s $10k, $15k-plus, someone’s going to want to at least have a conversation with you at minimum. Connection and who you are—and as you mentioned earlier, trust—is critical. I also believe that once someone finds out that your entire sales force is AI, I’m pretty confident they’re going to have lower trust in you, especially if you’re not telling people. That’s my whole take on that right now.

John SmallMtn (55:26)

The whole AI SDR thing of outbound calling: first of all, you should know that that’s illegal in most states and in most countries—the robocalling and stuff like that. You don’t get a pass because you think you’re the good guy; you’re still doing a tactic that is frowned upon and isn’t helpful in the grand scheme of things.

Honestly, I’m curious as to what your thoughts are about this: I think one of the reasons why so many salespeople struggle is that the goals are crazy and unrealistic. If people really want to be AI-led, they essentially have to take all their goals and forecasting off of it, and just be some weird version of product-led growth where they hope they’re going to get there. But because a lot of these companies are venture-funded and people want their money back, these goals come down from the top. That’s the greatness that will keep salespeople employed, but it also creates friction because the goals are unrealistic and way too high. What are your thoughts on that?

Morgan J Ingram (56:47)

What are my thoughts on goals being too high and what people should do?

John SmallMtn (56:51)

Just the idea that salespeople are kind of always going to have a role because goals are always going to be a thing, right? The same thing that causes anxiety is also the same thing that creates the space for us to still be in motion.

Morgan J Ingram (56:58)

You could say the goals were reduced, but I don’t see that happening. A human will always find a way and a new thing to do because they have to survive, innovate, and figure it out. In AI, technically, it’s just there. It may not feel the pressure to innovate and try something new; it’s only a mirror off of what you’re doing.

So I feel like sales will be one of the last things to be addressed by AI. The former CEO of HubSpot, Brian Halligan—I saw a clip the other day where he talked about how even they have not found incredible use cases for sales and marketing yet. So if HubSpot has not figured it out, I’m pretty confident that a lot of people won’t be able to figure it out for a while as well.

John SmallMtn (58:34)

Yeah, if Anthropic is posting roles to fill their whole sales team, you know?

Morgan J Ingram (58:39)

Exactly! People are over-indexing. I don’t think that AI can help people as much in the sales process as they think it can. It’s helpful, but I don’t think it can take over everything, because I don’t think that’s what people want. Why are we trying to force something that people don’t even want? SDR leaders are like, “I don’t take a cold call.” What are we talking about? You’re telling your team to cold call, and you don’t take cold calls? This has just become really silly. So that’s where I’m at with it right now.

John SmallMtn (59:17)

For every person that’s trying to use AI in their sales motion, let’s look at interactions with a chatbot and how people lose their mind whenever they realize that they’re not going to get the help that they want. This is just part of the human condition: “I’m not getting what I want, I’m going to be mad.” Now we’re going to do this around sales, timelines, and connection? No one is going to do it unless it’s a commodity, and that’s going the wrong direction. There’s a lot of depth and room to be different. If no one’s talking about those things and we’re leaving people to self-select, a lot of people are going to make the wrong choice.

One of my favorite mantras is: “No one ever got fired for buying IBM.” Well, someone did get fired because they decided not to buy IBM to save a little bit of money, and it didn’t go according to plan. I think we’re going to see a ton of that if it really tries to go as much AI as people pushing AI for sales and marketing are making it out to be.

Morgan J Ingram (1:00:30)

I agree.

John SmallMtn (1:00:31)

Changing gears a little bit, Morgan—because we’re running out of time and I respect your time and really appreciate you coming in and doing this—when a founder is thinking about selling and they’re just starting out, what in your very qualified opinion do they need to be thinking about when it comes to sales and sales training?

Morgan J Ingram (1:00:51)

Three things. I think these are the only three things that matter when you start:

1. Don’t think about yourself as an SDR when you start. I’ve been working with 50 founders who went off on their own—consultants, etc.—who were previously VPs, CROs, CMOs. They were struggling mentally to send DMs. As I worked with them, I realized it was a blocker because they were telling themselves the story that they need to be an SDR, and they don’t want to be an SDR. Your first step should be DMing people that you already know. You have leverage: you’ve built teams and million-dollar programs. An SDR hasn’t done that, which is why they have to reach out to a lot of people—they don’t know anyone and have no network. You don’t need to do that. So the first thing in selling is: reach out to everyone in your network that you know, whether to say, “I have this service that I want to sell you,” or “Do you know someone in your network that I can sell this service to?”
2. Look at who your competitors are and see who their customers are. Don’t sell something that nobody has bought. I made that mistake: “Let me sell influencer shows.” It was a new thing on the market, but no one had done it before. There was no line item, it wasn’t in the P&L, and the CFO didn’t know what it was. Find things that people are already buying. People are already buying sales consulting and training, so I just put a different spin on it. We do it a little bit differently, but people are already buying it, so it’s easy to conceptualize.
3. Think about how to make the selling experience an experience for the buyer. How you follow up, how you ask questions, being a professional—those things go a long way, because most people aren’t thinking about how to make this an experience for the buyer. You want them to feel like you’re a professional and you’re legit.

Those three things are what I focus on.

John SmallMtn (1:04:02)

I’m such a fan of high-level onboarding and stuff like that. A lot of solo founders are operators who think “good enough should be good enough, and you should just be happy with the output.” A really great onboarding experience is a game-changer.

In the world of social media and content, what is the LinkedIn post or X tweet that you can now appreciate, but you had to go learn the lesson the hard way?

Morgan J Ingram (1:04:46)

I saw this thing when I started, kind of laughed at it, and now I actually understand what it means. It was: “Entrepreneurship is like willingly eating glass every single day while driving 100 miles per hour on the highway.”

I understand that now. You don’t get it until you’re in it. You’re like, “Yeah, I will eat glass every single day while driving 100 miles per hour.”

John SmallMtn (1:05:18)

We make the choice to go do this. No one asked us to do these things. I talk with a lot of founders who are stuck trying to martyr themselves, and it’s like: you decided to do this. That’s the first important conversation whenever you’re feeling like you’re struggling. No one held a gun to your head.

There are a lot of other ways to make money to pay your bills and do the bare minimum. Since we chose to do this, we’re choosing everything that goes along with it. I’m a big fan of the “choose your hard” mentality. If you don’t want to live on a budget, you better work in a role where you’ve got the opportunity to earn more when you want to make more, or get comfortable living on a budget.

You’ve been in the space for a long time, and coming from sales, you’ve got a lot of experience. What is your word of warning for any founder—regardless of whether it’s content, sales coaching, building an agency, or a consultancy—who is going to start today?

Morgan J Ingram (1:06:48)

I’m going to stick to my original point: don’t chase the trends unless your skill set is directly correlated to that. Focus on what you mentioned earlier: what are people coming to you for? What makes you feel alive when you do it?

Connecting with people in a different lane—that’s what you need to be looking for. Chasing the trends will only lead you to chasing money, which can lead to results, but at some point you’re going to feel very disconnected from it, and that’s what you don’t want.

John SmallMtn (1:07:38)

Spot on. Morgan, if people want to come hang out with you, keep up with you, learn more about what you’re doing, or see if there’s room to work together, where’s the best place for them to go?

Morgan J Ingram (1:07:51)

LinkedIn. If you want deeper information, YouTube. We also have something called Muffins with Morgan. Yes, I eat muffins and we talk about sales, so it’s a lot of fun. I do that every Friday at 8:00 AM Pacific. It’s on our site, AMP Social.

John SmallMtn (1:08:10)

Awesome. Very cool. Morgan, thank you so much for coming on and talking about your pivot, and about figuring it out by doing—because a lot of people won’t start until they think they can think their way through the problem. Being open to pivots and changes is a big part of this game. So I really appreciate you coming on and sharing; I think it’s going to help a lot of people. Talk to you soon, my friend.

Morgan J Ingram (1:08:29)

Absolutely. Thanks for having me on. See ya!